OP
Somecamel
Link to Parliament TV for todays commons questions to Amber Rudd.
Lots of support in our favour.
Parliamentlive.tv - House of Commons
Lots of support in our favour.
Parliamentlive.tv - House of Commons
Discuss DECC launch FIT review in the Green Lounge (Access Only) area at ElectriciansForums.net
A huge number of supportive MPs were primed with questions to ask. We also know that a number of 'less than supportive' MPs were equally briefed by their whips to ask questions which would have better supported the Govt's position. Oh dear, they didn't get chosen.
There is a huge amount going on behind the scenes. If you haven't yet contacted your MP, please do so, go and see them, let them know of the likely impact on your business, especially job losses.
There have been a number of meetings between Amber Rudd and different representatives of the industry. Following BPVA outburst, these are now all held under 'Chatham House' rules. I am able to say that there has been assurance from Amber Rudd that this is a genuine consultation and they do want to hear from as many respondents as possible. Whilst nothing will ever be said publicly and we will never see what amounts to a back down, there may be the slightest room for manouvre. They need to be shown from as many sources as possible that they have got their sums wrong.
We are still faced with the issue of a perceived lack of budget for sufficient capacity in the LCF or other mechanism. However, there is still everything to fight for
There is a huge amount going on behind the scenes. If you haven't yet contacted your MP, please do so, go and see them, let them know of the likely impact on your business, especially job losses.
There have been a number of meetings between Amber Rudd and different representatives of the industry. Following BPVA outburst, these are now all held under 'Chatham House' rules. I am able to say that there has been assurance from Amber Rudd that this is a genuine consultation and they do want to hear from as many respondents as possible. Whilst nothing will ever be said publicly and we will never see what amounts to a back down, there may be the slightest room for manouvre. They need to be shown from as many sources as possible that they have got their sums wrong.
We are still faced with the issue of a perceived lack of budget for sufficient capacity in the LCF or other mechanism. However, there is still everything to fight for
Should also have added one politician is reported as saying that the most likely way to get a change of position from the Govt is for some negative press from the Daily Mail rubbishing the consultation and supporting solar..............
Need to try and get MPs to sign up to this:
Early day motion 437 - REDUCTION IN FUNDING FOR SOLAR POWER - UK Parliament
Early day motion 437 - REDUCTION IN FUNDING FOR SOLAR POWER - UK Parliament
Every Gigawatt of grid-connected solar brings down wholesale price by £35 million | Solar Power Portal
This is a pretty crucial part of the argument against the cuts, but does anyone know whether this £35 million saving per GWp of solar is an annual figure?
It's not clear in the article, and for some reason solar power portal seem to have taken to removing comments, as I commented on there to ask that question.
Will get clarification or you. This is all to do with what is called the 'Merit Order Effect' and how peak demand pricing is reduced by the presence of solar as per your remarks relating to comments your mate at a power station made.
Clarification as promised:
The saving is £35m per year per gigawatt of installed capacity. The Solar Intelligence UK market statistics put current capacity at 8.52GW, so annual saving is £298.20m. Capacity likely to crash through 10GW by time of closure of RO.
Don't have total cost of support of solar at all levels, although support under FITS is around £700m a year.
Implications are that cost of solar to bill payers is much less than stated by DECC. Wind has an impact on wholesale prices but in a slightly different way. The Merit Order Effect explains why in Germany midday pricing falls below zero. It also explains the push back against solar from large generators using thermal coal as it is knackering their business model - they end up at the back of the queue when daytime demand is at its highest.
Energy policy is dysfunctional and in a mess. The Carbon Price Floor and Capacity Mechanism are not working as intended exacerbating the problem. It is currently uneconomic to build a gas fired power station. I suspect they could be sneaked into CFDs as the primary legislation apparently states the programme is in support of energy policy. This would explain the huge growth shown in CFDs from 2018-19 shown in the FIT review. I could well be wrong on this latter point, but my cynicism is driven by DECC's refusal to divulge what the CFD projections contain. When asked under Freedom of Information, they have blanked stating it is commercially sensitive.
Hopefully Good Energy report will be published in the next couple of weeks. Information has already been presented to DECC, including The Minister's SPAD responsible for this sector of policy.
The saving is £35m per year per gigawatt of installed capacity. The Solar Intelligence UK market statistics put current capacity at 8.52GW, so annual saving is £298.20m. Capacity likely to crash through 10GW by time of closure of RO.
Don't have total cost of support of solar at all levels, although support under FITS is around £700m a year.
Implications are that cost of solar to bill payers is much less than stated by DECC. Wind has an impact on wholesale prices but in a slightly different way. The Merit Order Effect explains why in Germany midday pricing falls below zero. It also explains the push back against solar from large generators using thermal coal as it is knackering their business model - they end up at the back of the queue when daytime demand is at its highest.
Energy policy is dysfunctional and in a mess. The Carbon Price Floor and Capacity Mechanism are not working as intended exacerbating the problem. It is currently uneconomic to build a gas fired power station. I suspect they could be sneaked into CFDs as the primary legislation apparently states the programme is in support of energy policy. This would explain the huge growth shown in CFDs from 2018-19 shown in the FIT review. I could well be wrong on this latter point, but my cynicism is driven by DECC's refusal to divulge what the CFD projections contain. When asked under Freedom of Information, they have blanked stating it is commercially sensitive.
Hopefully Good Energy report will be published in the next couple of weeks. Information has already been presented to DECC, including The Minister's SPAD responsible for this sector of policy.
Last edited:
ok thanks, I assumed that was the case but always good to get it clarified before going out to bat with it.
btw I checked a while ago and to head off any potential claims to the contrary, the level of daytime spinning reserve has actually fallen over the last few years not risen, so there is no truth at all to claims that solar requires additional spinning reserve to back it up - if anything the opposite is true as the reserve is really there to cover the potential for a single large powerstation to drop off line in an instant, solar by contrast is subject to very gradual changes when taken across the country.
btw I checked a while ago and to head off any potential claims to the contrary, the level of daytime spinning reserve has actually fallen over the last few years not risen, so there is no truth at all to claims that solar requires additional spinning reserve to back it up - if anything the opposite is true as the reserve is really there to cover the potential for a single large powerstation to drop off line in an instant, solar by contrast is subject to very gradual changes when taken across the country.
ps that puts it at approx 3.88p of reduction in wholesale pricing per kWh of generation, which is about twice the level of FIT proposed for domestic.
At first glance that seems very high, but it will presumably be down to that idea of price volatility is disproportionately high for the very top bit of demand vs supply, a bit like the reason that relatively small changes in supply and demand for oil can result in huge wholesale price fluctuations.
At first glance that seems very high, but it will presumably be down to that idea of price volatility is disproportionately high for the very top bit of demand vs supply, a bit like the reason that relatively small changes in supply and demand for oil can result in huge wholesale price fluctuations.
OP
TedM
The main question is:
if the wholesale price falls is that passed on to the consumer, or just pocketed by the suppliers as extra profit?
if the wholesale price falls is that passed on to the consumer, or just pocketed by the suppliers as extra profit?
Response from my Tory MP:
Dear Philip
Thank you for contacting me about proposed changes to Feed-in Tariffs (FITs).
I have been assured that the Government is committed to meeting 15 per cent of the UK's energy demands from renewable resources by 2020, and FITs have led to levels of renewable energy deployment that have surpassed all expectations. By the end of the year deployment under the FIT scheme will have already exceeded the Government's 2012 projections for wind, hydro and anaerobic digestion in 2020-21, and is expected to be within the predicted range for solar before then too.
It is good news for the environment that renewable energy has been rolled out sooner than anticipated, but the extra costs associated with providing FITs are ultimately paid by customers through their energy bills. I would expect the Government to ensure that these costs are kept affordable.
That is why the Government is now consulting on proposals designed to relieve the pressure on energy customers from rising costs, improve value for their money and keep the costs of renewable energy policies sustainable. I am clear that for any energy source to have potential to replace fossil fuels, it must be financially viable both for businesses and customers.
The Government consultation raises questions about a set of proposed new tariff rates, based on the latest information about how much these schemes really cost. It also suggests capping spending on new FITs at £75-100 million by 2018-19, so as to avoid the need to stop providing tariffs for new generation projects entirely. Existing facilities would not be affected by these changes.
The consultation will close on 23 October and you can find more information on the UK Government website, www.gov.uk, by searching on the term 'Feed-in Tariffs consultation'.
Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.
Yours sincerely
Andrea Jenkyns MP
Morley and Outwood
Dear Philip
Thank you for contacting me about proposed changes to Feed-in Tariffs (FITs).
I have been assured that the Government is committed to meeting 15 per cent of the UK's energy demands from renewable resources by 2020, and FITs have led to levels of renewable energy deployment that have surpassed all expectations. By the end of the year deployment under the FIT scheme will have already exceeded the Government's 2012 projections for wind, hydro and anaerobic digestion in 2020-21, and is expected to be within the predicted range for solar before then too.
It is good news for the environment that renewable energy has been rolled out sooner than anticipated, but the extra costs associated with providing FITs are ultimately paid by customers through their energy bills. I would expect the Government to ensure that these costs are kept affordable.
That is why the Government is now consulting on proposals designed to relieve the pressure on energy customers from rising costs, improve value for their money and keep the costs of renewable energy policies sustainable. I am clear that for any energy source to have potential to replace fossil fuels, it must be financially viable both for businesses and customers.
The Government consultation raises questions about a set of proposed new tariff rates, based on the latest information about how much these schemes really cost. It also suggests capping spending on new FITs at £75-100 million by 2018-19, so as to avoid the need to stop providing tariffs for new generation projects entirely. Existing facilities would not be affected by these changes.
The consultation will close on 23 October and you can find more information on the UK Government website, www.gov.uk, by searching on the term 'Feed-in Tariffs consultation'.
Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.
Yours sincerely
Andrea Jenkyns MP
Morley and Outwood
Call it the cynic in me, the Government will do whatever it wants to do, unless you can get BIG industry calling for ongoing fit support (and as per eon's request the other day they want support for more gas power stations - powered by our own gas from fracking), it wont happen and whatever the trade associations etc are doing, the Government has already made up its mind, and they just consider all the information and arguments being presented to them as responses to the consultation as noise.
Even if you do manage to get an easement on the current proposed changes, it is as the MP quoted above has said inevitibale that the FiTs scheme will be closed within the near future.
The governmkent keep pointing to gas generation being cleaner than coal or oil, and also that the US has completely turned its energy position around in the last 10 years thanks to fracking and is now a net exporter - all ofitswest coast gas ports have no been swapped over to allow filling of sea going lpg tankers inbstead of discharging.
The big picture hence is stamping all over the micro picture of the FiT rates, hence they will argue that the FiT levlels still support large scale commercial rooftop deployement and therefore that is the most cost effective way of delivering their targets.
I dont see that the Solar Industry has any winnable arguments agains this position, so there may be one or two small concessions just for the Government to say that they've listened to the consultation. However we have been planning for zero fit since July - long before the consultation, so I would strongly advise everyone else to expect there to be no signifcant change from the published consulatation and plan their business based on that.
The Government has also decided it will get all its major changes done now and done hard (e.g. all the changes to incomes support etc) they will then have 4 years for people to forget about it before the next election.
Even if you do manage to get an easement on the current proposed changes, it is as the MP quoted above has said inevitibale that the FiTs scheme will be closed within the near future.
The governmkent keep pointing to gas generation being cleaner than coal or oil, and also that the US has completely turned its energy position around in the last 10 years thanks to fracking and is now a net exporter - all ofitswest coast gas ports have no been swapped over to allow filling of sea going lpg tankers inbstead of discharging.
The big picture hence is stamping all over the micro picture of the FiT rates, hence they will argue that the FiT levlels still support large scale commercial rooftop deployement and therefore that is the most cost effective way of delivering their targets.
I dont see that the Solar Industry has any winnable arguments agains this position, so there may be one or two small concessions just for the Government to say that they've listened to the consultation. However we have been planning for zero fit since July - long before the consultation, so I would strongly advise everyone else to expect there to be no signifcant change from the published consulatation and plan their business based on that.
The Government has also decided it will get all its major changes done now and done hard (e.g. all the changes to incomes support etc) they will then have 4 years for people to forget about it before the next election.
Gordon maybe right, but do not under-estimate the scale of the push back against the review and consultation.
My trade association (the STA) have walked through the front door of 10 Downing Street to discuss this in the Cabinet Office, and this is an ongoing dialogue above the level of DECC. Nothing is promised, but the Government are seriously rattled - they did not expect members of their own side and their natural supporters to come out so strongly against their proposals. No one had properly considered the impact of the scale of job losses. When you think Osborne had promised £80m in support of 1700 lost steel jobs on Tees-Side and over 1000 have already gone in solar, you start to see the picture. At least 27,000 people work in the industry. 20,000 of those jobs could go.
Major investors have made their feelings known privately.
In Parliament last week in reply to a written question the Government has acknowledged that deployment of solar is within the projected range, so no more talk of oversprend by our technology. Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs:Written question - 10760 - UK Parliament
We have put forward a fully costed alternative that would add £1.00 to bills. This would take the industry in an orderly manner to the point of zero support by 2020. Total cost is £100m. This is already being referred to as 'the rescue package' for solar. It has been presented to DECC as part of the ongoing dialogue.
The entire press coverage is about solar, not the other technologies covered by the review and consultation.
THERE IS STILL EVERYTHING TO FIGHT FOR
Please:
Respond to the Consultation,
Tell them why they are wrong in their assumptions
Ask for at least 8p in the 0-10kW band.
Ask for a separate tariff for social housing to ensure an orderly market.
Keep pestering your MP - let them know about potential job losses. A geographic analysis has been done on this and sent to each MP showing how many solar jobs there are in their constituency. Make this real for them.
Get your MP to sign this early day motion:
Early day motion 437 - REDUCTION IN FUNDING FOR SOLAR POWER - UK Parliament
Let the press know about your success locally especially schools and community programs. Let them know of the threats to all this in the future and the threat to local jobs.
Our (the STA) whole strategy for the last twelve months has been about how to move the entire industry to zero subsidy by 2020. This is the environment in which everyone can thrive. Right now we are being needlessly and pointlessly threatened with being pushed off a cliff before we can fly.
Please don't just roll over or leave it to others. The industry belongs to all of us.
My trade association (the STA) have walked through the front door of 10 Downing Street to discuss this in the Cabinet Office, and this is an ongoing dialogue above the level of DECC. Nothing is promised, but the Government are seriously rattled - they did not expect members of their own side and their natural supporters to come out so strongly against their proposals. No one had properly considered the impact of the scale of job losses. When you think Osborne had promised £80m in support of 1700 lost steel jobs on Tees-Side and over 1000 have already gone in solar, you start to see the picture. At least 27,000 people work in the industry. 20,000 of those jobs could go.
Major investors have made their feelings known privately.
In Parliament last week in reply to a written question the Government has acknowledged that deployment of solar is within the projected range, so no more talk of oversprend by our technology. Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs:Written question - 10760 - UK Parliament
We have put forward a fully costed alternative that would add £1.00 to bills. This would take the industry in an orderly manner to the point of zero support by 2020. Total cost is £100m. This is already being referred to as 'the rescue package' for solar. It has been presented to DECC as part of the ongoing dialogue.
The entire press coverage is about solar, not the other technologies covered by the review and consultation.
THERE IS STILL EVERYTHING TO FIGHT FOR
Please:
Respond to the Consultation,
Tell them why they are wrong in their assumptions
Ask for at least 8p in the 0-10kW band.
Ask for a separate tariff for social housing to ensure an orderly market.
Keep pestering your MP - let them know about potential job losses. A geographic analysis has been done on this and sent to each MP showing how many solar jobs there are in their constituency. Make this real for them.
Get your MP to sign this early day motion:
Early day motion 437 - REDUCTION IN FUNDING FOR SOLAR POWER - UK Parliament
Let the press know about your success locally especially schools and community programs. Let them know of the threats to all this in the future and the threat to local jobs.
Our (the STA) whole strategy for the last twelve months has been about how to move the entire industry to zero subsidy by 2020. This is the environment in which everyone can thrive. Right now we are being needlessly and pointlessly threatened with being pushed off a cliff before we can fly.
Please don't just roll over or leave it to others. The industry belongs to all of us.
Last edited:
Nice to have the UN on board as well ahead of Paris:
UN scientist Jacquie McGlade raps UK over renewables - BBC News
UN scientist Jacquie McGlade raps UK over renewables - BBC News
Good energy report on effect of renewables on wholesale prices now published:
Renewables bring down the wholesale cost of energy, finds new study | Good Energy
Renewables bring down the wholesale cost of energy, finds new study | Good Energy
Reply to DECC launch FIT review in the Green Lounge (Access Only) area at ElectriciansForums.net
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