Domestic Installer

[Pete999]

I have my flak jacket, Kevlar hat on so fire away, as most of you old timers are aware, I'm an old timer also, maybe it's my age, but I'm confused.com.
The confusion arises over the title of this post, and probably I ought to know the answer, but would be grateful if someone could clear up my conundrum? I hear folks say"there is no such thing as a domestic Installer" "your either an Electrician or you aren't" so please put me at ease, is there such a being as a Domestic Installer? I think not but please clarify. Sorry for the politeness of my post, it's my working for the government that does it.:mickey::elvis::seeya::grinningelf:

 

[imago]

Well, when I came into the trade and for the majority of time I've been in it we had....

No qualification - Labourer
A certificate qualified - Basic Electrician
B certificate qualified - Approved Electrician
C certificate qualified - Technician.

What the hell is wrong with that, still 4 grades but three time served. I know the A cert was pretty basic, but at least it was time served and meant time WAS spent learning to do the job.

There's nothing wrong with it, and that's my point. It's not the fact that a level or grade of electrician exists such as a "Domestic Installer" that's the problem. It's how people are trained, and how relevant the training and qualifications are to the work.

The current set up means that someone with practical experience, gained either working with an electrician or in related trades, are classed and graded at the same level as someone who has never worked in a manual trade at all because both have the minimum requirement which currently is an open book test and membership of a scheme.

Four year apprenticeships across the board are not the answer IMHO as they are too costly and too few companies are able to provide the places. Neither do I think that JIB grading is the answer as they really aren't up to the job. In fact I would suggest that they are in part responsible for the current state of affairs.

Unfortunately there is neither the will nor the funding to create a new system which would be fit for purpose. So anyone hoping things are going to change soon will be disappointed.

 

[Meggerman]

The 2356 is being fazed out

2330 and 2356 are being replaced by 2357

2330 = tech cert
2356 = nvq lvl3
2357 = 2330+2356

I completed the 2330 lvl3 but had to do the 2357 because jtl fazed 2356 out by that point.

In other words I will have been training for 4.5 years ish

2330 was one way of showing underpinning knowledge for the 2356 NVQ3 which was a standalone qual, which as you say, has been phased out. 2357 is an NVQ3 in it's own right, 2365 is underpinning knowledge towards it or you can do 2330 conversion to 2357 as you are doing.

 

[ipf]

There's nothing wrong with it, and that's my point. It's not the fact that a level or grade of electrician exists such as a "Domestic Installer" that's the problem. It's how people are trained, and how relevant the training and qualifications are to the work.

The current set up means that someone with practical experience, gained either working with an electrician or in related trades, are classed and graded at the same level as someone who has never worked in a manual trade at all because both have the minimum requirement which currently is an open book test and membership of a scheme.

Four year apprenticeships across the board are not the answer IMHO as they are too costly and too few companies are able to provide the places. Neither do I think that JIB grading is the answer as they really aren't up to the job. In fact I would suggest that they are in part responsible for the current state of affairs.

Unfortunately there is neither the will nor the funding to create a new system which would be fit for purpose. So anyone hoping things are going to change soon will be disappointed.

Plenty we're in agreement with, I'm sure.
It's the many, many reasons behind the decline that are upsetting and the way the world wise ,money making, entrepeneurs have jumped on the band wagon, even to an extent of infiltrating those who were once recognised as the 'be all and end all' of contracting excellence in terms of regulation, supposedly owned by a registered charity.

 

[Englishman]

2330 was one way of showing underpinning knowledge for the 2356 NVQ3 which was a standalone qual, which as you say, has been phased out. 2357 is an NVQ3 in it's own right, 2365 is underpinning knowledge towards it or you can do 2330 conversion to 2357 as you are doing.

They need to offer nvq3 as a standalone qualification again IMO. Can't ask people who need or want it to go over ground they've already done because they didn't do the nvq3 when they were at college for whatever reason.

 

[shanky887614]

They need to offer nvq3 as a standalone qualification again IMO. Can't ask people who need or want it to go over ground they've already done because they didn't do the nvq3 when they were at college for whatever reason.

if you have 2330 or one of some other courses.

All you need to do is drop into test center do a multichoice renewables test online.

Then nvq section.

Couldnt be simpler

 

[Englishman]

if you have 2330 or one of some other courses.

All you need to do is drop into test center do a multichoice renewables test online.

Then nvq section.

Couldnt be simpler

I've got 2330 and was led to believe that the 2357 (??) requires you to do the equivalent of the entire level 3 2330 and then the nvq.

 

[NickD]

All these four-digit numbers are doing my head in! If you're starting out from apprentice levels these days, what courses do you do to get to what is regarded as qualified? Not as in what do people have from X years ago, what does one do now?

 

[shanky887614]

All these four-digit numbers are doing my head in! If you're starting out from apprentice levels these days, what courses do you do to get to what is regarded as qualified? Not as in what do people have from X years ago, what does one do now?

Simple.

City and guild 2357 thats tech cert and nvq

Need to be employed to start though

 

[Engineer54]

The 2356 and 2357 both are full electrician qualifications. Both require underpinning knowledge as well as practical. They are not add ons, they are the full ticket.

The full C&G 2357/NVQ diploma is the full ticket, as it combines both the core qualification 2365 and the NVQ 3. But the 2356 alone is solely a NVQ 3 qualification and as such is 100%, a supplementary or add-on qualification to any recognised core qualifications.


No i don't have a JIB card, why the hell would i need one?? Mores the point, Do You hold a JIB electrician or Approved electricians card??

 

[PEM]

Sick and tired of the references to scams in terms of NICEIC and others schemes!

For those constantly moaning be honest bet your on a scheme because otherwise hitting a client for up to £200 on a job that someone on a scheme can do for a couple of quid would mean you'd never get a look in!!

To all the winging old timers who remember the good old times when things were different damned well move on or just shut up. It's 2014 not 1970.

So damned boring !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Badged01]

Don't pull your punches son ....... give it to them straight from the hip!

 

[trev]

So how would you describe an organisation which someone has to join to carry out certain works?
An organisation which charges roughly twice as much as another one for exactly the same product?
An organisation which purports to uphold industry standards yet has visibly lowered them by introducing a scheme for experienced people with no qualifications yet opens it up to all and sundry who can pass an open book exam and open their cheque book?
An organisation which, once again, purports to uphold industry standards yet has no information on how many applicants are refused membership or have had membership revoked because of shoddy work?
Need I go on?

 

[PEM]

Schemes need upgrading no doubt about it at my last inspection it was all about paperwork my jobs on site were of little interest.

Pen pushers gone mad common sense out the window. Same in all spheres it's called progress.

Problem with this damned PC correct country is now it's all about paperwork and ticking the right boxes. Actual ability to do the job doesn't matter as much as having paperwork which shows you can do the job. Problem is you can't beat them have to join them. It not the schemes fault this exists in all areas

One example is competency based interviews especially in the public sector. Complete utter sh... And as a previous Head of Service in that area I know.

In old days if someone was crap you'd sack them. Now you have to consider their personal problems set them SMART targets and then give them time to improve to the minimum standard acceptable.

Rant over country gone mad run by non productive pen pushing types and public school cretins.

 

[Meggerman]

The full C&G 2357/NVQ diploma is the full ticket, as it combines both the core qualification 2365 and the NVQ 3. But the 2356 alone is solely a NVQ 3 qualification and as such is 100%, a supplementary or add-on qualification to any recognised core qualifications.


No i don't have a JIB card, why the hell would i need one?? Mores the point, Do You hold a JIB electrician or Approved electricians card??

Course I do. JIB GRADE - APPROVED ELECTRICIAN

 

[Pete999]

Oh dear rattled some cages I think I wasn't ranting about the "scams" merely asking if there is was such a thing as a DI

 

[camerabloke]

Oh dear rattled some cages I think I wasn't ranting about the "scams" merely asking if there is was such a thing as a DI

Only in the Bill

 

[Badged01]

Oh dear rattled some cages I think I wasn't ranting about the "scams" merely asking if there is was such a thing as a DI

Yes, its an electrical professional who only deals in single phase, low voltage domestic environments.

 

[ipf]

Schemes need upgrading no doubt about it at my last inspection it was all about paperwork my jobs on site were of little interest.

Pen pushers gone mad common sense out the window. Same in all spheres it's called progress.

Problem with this damned PC correct country is now it's all about paperwork and ticking the right boxes. Actual ability to do the job doesn't matter as much as having paperwork which shows you can do the job. Problem is you can't beat them have to join them. It not the schemes fault this exists in all areas

One example is competency based interviews especially in the public sector. Complete utter sh... And as a previous Head of Service in that area I know.

In old days if someone was crap you'd sack them. Now you have to consider their personal problems set them SMART targets and then give them time to improve to the minimum standard acceptable.

Rant over country gone mad run by non productive pen pushing types and public school cretins.

What a boring sod you are......think it's time you shut up, stopped being a damn whinger (with an h) and moved on...some of us have but still have our roots and respect them.

 

[uksparks]

At the emd of the dy you can either do the work or you can't, I couldn't care less what bits of paper you have, I'd rather see hard work and good skills, DI or AC or whatever else, makes no difference to me.

 

[PEM]

Ipf - "Id certum est quod certum reddi potest" figure it out. As for winging is not the whole purpose of this thread to moan! So I will fw moan if I want!

Actually the NICEIC have 2 types of DI full scope and defined scope.

 

[trev]

Ipf - "Id certum est quod certum reddi potest" figure it out.

That is certain which may be rendered certain.
If I think about it long enough it might make sense within the context of the thread, except I cba.

 

[ipf]

Ipf - "Id certum est quod certum reddi potest" figure it out. As for winging is not the whole purpose of this thread to moan! So I will fw moan if I want!

Actually the NICEIC have 2 types of DI full scope and defined scope.

A telescope and a periscope ?

 

[pianoman]

I am a trainee and this Is my first post.

Is a domestic installer a person who certified under a Part P scheme, and would a fully qualified electrician have no need for such accreditation?

 

[davesparks]

Generally speaking the domestic installer is someone who has done a short course and has proceeded to attempt to do the job of an electrician.

 

[Pete999]

As above:wheelchair: