Economy 7 confusion

[ryan224466]

Hello all,

We have just moved into our new place and it is all electric running a economy 7 set up.

I have done some looking and it seems I want my off peak switch always on and keep the on peak switch off. My confusion is nothing is marked.

I have attached photos of the water heater with the only switch I can see turned on. This looks like it’s the off peak as it’s coming from the bottom of the tank? Located in the bedroom closet.

The only other switch is next to the economy 7 controller box which is currently off located in the kitchen. The box is on but it is just dim lighting so the display looks off.

Apologies for the long post I just want to make sure it’s all sitting as it should as I have never used this system before and I would hate to start paying crazy money especially at the moment.

 

[newfutile]

There seems to be nothing wired to the top (peak) immersion anyway

 

[EricMark]

Economy 7 is a tariff not a system, there are many ways it can work. In the beginning we had White meters, and every item powered by the off-peak was connected to a different fuse box, (no consumer units back then) and it mean that items like washing machines, tumble driers, and dishwashers could not use the off-peak.

So over the years the way in which we can use off-peak has changed, some times a trigger wire, some times the meter still turns on a CU, in my home, there is no trigger or separate box, it is up to me to set times when washing machines, tumble driers, and dishwashers run, and my battery recharges.

So this seems to be the data sheet which seems to not tell you much. The youtube video seems better

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEHWBZQVas0

 

[Avo Mk8]

If you are concerned about minimising your electricity bill, ideally you don't want the bottom immersion consuming peak rate power. So you need to find out how the immersion is being fed, hopefully from a power source that is switched - either an off-peak consumer unit ('fuseboard') switched by the meter, or the timer unit in the kitchen (or possibly a combination of the two!). If the switch on the wall feeding the immersion has a red neon indicator that's going to help, if not it might be useful to fit one.

Can you tell us what you have by way of consumer unit(s) and meter. Photo's would help. Is there a circuit breaker marked 'immersion'?

If you don't have an off-peak consumer unit, you will need a working timeswitch. I think swapping the body of what you have is a straightforward DIY task (with power off!)
This might be useful: https://dam.epim.online/timeguard-19abbd57-b7f1-4088-baa7-bbe453c25a37/Product Instructions/Climate/Programastat Plus/TRTD7N_Instructs_135x90_issue_3_web_ready.pdf

Finally I don't mean to be cheeky but are you renting, or is this your property - might have a bearing on how this is resolved.

https://www.directtradesupplies.co....igital-timeswitch-with-boost-control--white-?

 

[ryan224466]

There seems to be nothing wired to the top (peak) immersion anyway

Does that mean it would never kick in? Should there be a wire there ?

 

[ryan224466]

If you are concerned about minimising your electricity bill, ideally you don't want the bottom immersion consuming peak rate power. So you need to find out how the immersion is being fed, hopefully from a power source that is switched - either an off-peak consumer unit ('fuseboard') switched by the meter, or the timer unit in the kitchen (or possibly a combination of the two!). If the switch on the wall feeding the immersion has a red neon indicator that's going to help, if not it might be useful to fit one.

Can you tell us what you have by way of consumer unit(s) and meter. Photo's would help. Is there a circuit breaker marked 'immersion'?

If you don't have an off-peak consumer unit, you will need a working timeswitch. I think swapping the body of what you have is a straightforward DIY task (with power off!)
This might be useful: https://dam.epim.online/timeguard-19abbd57-b7f1-4088-baa7-bbe453c25a37/Product Instructions/Climate/Programastat Plus/TRTD7N_Instructs_135x90_issue_3_web_ready.pdf

Finally I don't mean to be cheeky but are you renting, or is this your property - might have a bearing on how this is resolved.

https://www.directtradesupplies.co....igital-timeswitch-with-boost-control--white-?

Hello,

Thank you for the reply! No issue about being cheeky, we have just bought the place so not a lot of handover left.

I have attached images of the fuse boxes under the stairs.

Is that any help at all?

 

[mainline]

Does that mean it would never kick in? Should there be a wire there ?

The immersion tank middle heating element is not connected, so will never work.

 

[Resu]

That Newlec timer/switch will need to be left switched to "timed" for the offpeak to work - also worth checking the times it's set to actually line up with your offpeak tariff. The boost button utilises the 24 hour supply to boost the heat if you were to run out of hot water, typically limited from 30 min to 2 hours. In your case the bottom element is being used for offpeak and boost, which isn't an uncommon setup on smaller tanks.

If you wanted to utilise both elements you'd either have to run a second switch wire from the switch position to the tank cupboard or rehome that switch in to the tank cupboard.

There is a couple of benefits to this -
redundancy - if the bottom element fails you have an immediate backup with the press of the boost button.

Again in the event the bottom element fails, it's possible boosting the bottom element, even set to 2 hours, is incapable of heating that entire tank from cold to a reasonable "hot" temp. If you were boosting the top one for 2 hours it's almost guaranteed to be hot but you'll have less volume.

These immersion elements have stats in them so they regulate themselves. If you don't use that much hot water in a day, not that much heat will be lost so it'll only be doing a small amount of work the next evening to top up.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Hello,

Thank you for the reply! No issue about being cheeky, we have just bought the place so not a lot of handover left.

I have attached images of the fuse boxes under the stairs.

Is that any help at all?

Thanks for the pic's. It's not immediately clear to me what the Proteus board is for. Do you know? Are there 2 x storage heaters for example?
A pic of the meter and any kit with it would be handy if poss!

 

[ryan224466]

Thanks for the pic's. It's not immediately clear to me what the Proteus board is for. Do you know? Are there 2 x storage heaters for example?
A pic of the meter and any kit with it would be handy if poss!

We do have 2 storage heaters, never been used and both are turned off at the wall. I have attached pictures of the meter outside? Sorry not sure what other kit you mean ?

 

[Avo Mk8]

We do have 2 storage heaters, never been used and both are turned off at the wall. I have attached pictures of the meter outside? Sorry not sure what other kit you mean ?

Sometimes with older installations there is a separate timeclock or radio teleswitch, which is what I meant by 'other kit'.

You have a meter incorporating a radio operated time switch, and two sets of cables ('tails') from it that presumably feed the two consumer units. So if the two storage heaters are on the Proteus board supply, your immersion appears to be on the main house supply circuit.
Originally off-peak was only supplied by the off-peak circuit, and the rest of the house was always charged at peak rate.
These days with a smart meter, many customers get whole house supplied with reduced rate during the off-peak period.
I suspect that may not be the case with your older meter and dual consumer unit arrangement. In which case you immersion does not have an off-peak supply, and all hot water will be charged at peak rate whatever time of day you have the immersion on. You might just as well leave it on all the time at the moment.

Your electricity supplier will no doubt be encouraging you to have a smart meter, as the radio transmission of the time signal for your old meter is due to cease soon (though the turn-off time has been extended several times already)

 

[ryan224466]

Sometimes with older installations there is a separate timeclock or radio teleswitch, which is what I meant by 'other kit'.

You have a meter incorporating a radio operated time switch, and two sets of cables ('tails') from it that presumably feed the two consumer units. So if the two storage heaters are on the Proteus board supply, your immersion appears to be on the main house supply circuit.
Originally off-peak was only supplied by the off-peak circuit, and the rest of the house was always charged at peak rate.
These days with a smart meter, many customers get whole house supplied with reduced rate during the off-peak period.
I suspect that may not be the case with your older meter and dual consumer unit arrangement. In which case you immersion does not have an off-peak supply, and all hot water will be charged at peak rate whatever time of day you have the immersion on. You might just as well leave it on all the time at the moment.

Your electricity supplier will no doubt be encouraging you to have a smart meter, as the radio transmission of the time signal for your old meter is due to cease soon (though the turn-off time has been extended several times already)

Thank you so much for the detailed reply! I have done the online check and it said that a smart meter is not available for us at the moment. I will call them to clarify.

If this was not possible what would be the best solution for using that off peak rate for the immersion ?

Or is it a case of switching tariffs to a single rate as I do not have the ability to take advantage of the off peak ?

 

[Avo Mk8]

If this was not possible what would be the best solution for using that off peak rate for the immersion ?

Or is it a case of switching tariffs to a single rate as I do not have the ability to take advantage of the off peak ?

If my understanding of your consumer units is correct, and if you were prepared to sacrifice a storage heater, a cable could be wired to the immersion from the cheap rate supply. If an electrician was prepared to do it, they could add another mcb into the Proteus board for the immersion. Then you would need the other immersion to be wired up to give you the option of boosting HW during peak times.
This all assumes you are actually on a dual tariff, and your supplier is not just adding the two readings together and charging a flat rate.
With E7 you pay a little more for peak electricity - E7 is really only more economical if at least 35% of your total consumption is off-peak. If you are not using the storage heaters this is unlikely to be the case.
You might actually be better off on a single tariff. Suggest you research and do some sums!

 

[ryan224466]

If my understanding of your consumer units is correct, and if you were prepared to sacrifice a storage heater, a cable could be wired to the immersion from the cheap rate supply. If an electrician was prepared to do it, they could add another mcb into the Proteus board for the immersion. Then you would need the other immersion to be wired up to give you the option of boosting HW during peak times.
This all assumes you are actually on a dual tariff, and your supplier is not just adding the two readings together and charging a flat rate.
With E7 you pay a little more for peak electricity - E7 is really only more economical if at least 35% of your total consumption is off-peak. If you are not using the storage heaters this is unlikely to be the case.
You might actually be better off on a single tariff. Suggest you research and do some sums!

Thank you so much for your input! I will speak to octopus and see what they say regarding a new tariff.