EDF Economy 9 Off Peak times-?

[Psych1965]

To all the electricians out there who understand the Economy 9 tariff: I live in a flat that has an Economy 9 tariff (Off Peak electricity at certain set times of day-EDF control these times of day). My Off Peak circuit is my Heating circuit and my Peak circuit is my Power circuit.

I was advised by EDF that the Off-Peak supply turns on at the following times: 1:30-3:30; 10:00PM-midnight, 2am-5am, and 5.30am-7.30am (a total of 9 hours). This is what I had observed until the last couple of days-for example, this afternoon, the red light on my water tank (which is connected to the off peak supply) came on at 12:30 (and not 1:30PM) and the two radiators that I had installed on Thursday also came on at 12:30 (the supply came on) instead of at 1:30.

I had an electrician here on Thursday who replaced my old storage heaters with new electric radiators. He said he had to "reconfigure" my fuseboard. Is it possible that whatever he did has changed the times that supply energy to my off peak sockets? This doesn't make sense to me.

Last night I also noticed that my bedroom radiator (which is connected to the off-peak (also called heating circuit, as opposed to power circuit) was on at 9:15PM-suggesting it came on at 9:00PM (instead of at 10:00PM as EDF had advised).

EDF used to have a Complex Meter Team until a few months ago-it was that team who provided me with the hours for the Off Peak supply.

I am concerned because I have a timer connected to my water tank such that my water is supposed to warm up between 1:30-3:30PM and at other times throughout the night (as per to EDF's timings). But if EDF have changed their Off Peak timings, should I be changing the times I have set on my timer, so that I am heating water at the off peak time? I actually don't think so since the timer will go off when EDF's Off Peak hour "stops" so if in fact they have changed the timings from 1:39-3:30 to 12:3-2:30-it should shut off automatically at 2:30PM. My timer is due to come on at 1:30 and shut off at 1:30 but EDF have clearly changed the times that the Off Peak supply comes on and off.

So, two questions really: the above Q. in bold and the Q. above in bold re-my electrician and my fusebox. I can't understand why the times have changed-surely these are controlled by EDF, no?

Please can someone advise? Just to add: I don't think this is to do with Daylight Savings Time/British Summer time-because until recently, the times that my Off peak sockets were coming on were as per EDF's hours-this change did not occur back in March when we put our clocks forward. I can't tell you when this started-I only noticed this yesterday, the day after my two new heaters were installed-the only reason I spotted this is because my new radiators have a display on the front so it's very obvious when it has power/when it's on.

Thank you.

 

[Avo Mk8]

If it’s like the second system I suggested above, then everything is cheap rate overnight, whatever board it is coming from.

And that's what I am concerned about, because the radiators now installed have only modest storage capability and the E9 daytime periods are really needed for them to supply heat during the day. They do not benefit from 'charging up' during the night as storage heaters would.
Because on-peak electricity is typically more expensive with E7, E9 etc, it concerns me that the changes (that I am guessing have been made), will mean higher electricity bills.

 

[littlespark]

It’s concerns me that this wasn’t explained to OP by the electrician that installed the heaters.

 

[Psych1965]

There seems to be a fundamental mis-match between the original architecture of the supply - one board switching power to heating and water at E9 cheap rate times (including daytime periods), and one board for rest of house that also gives cheap rate at night, and the use now of electric radiators that have a single mains connection designed for connection to a permanent 24 hour supply (but with internal timer).
With old 'dumb' storage heaters it was fine to just connect them to a supply that comes on at night, and they did the job.
With 'smart' new heaters and radiators, they generally require a 24 hour maintained supply to run the electronics, timer etc. The Haverland geo-dry radiators have a single mains lead and appear to require a 24 hour supply, so presumably they have now been wired to the rest of house supply, so you would not benefit from the E9 daytime periods of heating (which is needed with radiators, but not with storage heaters)

I feel this needs a serious look into whether the radiator model you have is actually the best for your particular 2-CU supply arrangement.

Hi Avo-I’m out at the minute so will be brief, but just to say that two of the new heaters have been installed on the off-peak supply so they only come on at certain times of day, which is fine for me, but I need to find out whether, if I set the timer on the Heaters, the fact that they are getting turned off when the off-peak time stops is that gonna affect the internal timer of The Heater? I need to put this to the manufacturer as well. The electrician is coming back so he can do whatever I want him to do. I was advised by EDF that anything that is on the power supply between 11:30 pm and 6:30 am will be charged at the lower rate.

 

[Psych1965]

There seems to be a fundamental mis-match between the original architecture of the supply - one board switching power to heating and water at E9 cheap rate times (including daytime periods), and one board for rest of house that also gives cheap rate at night, and the use now of electric radiators that have a single mains connection designed for connection to a permanent 24 hour supply (but with internal timer).
With old 'dumb' storage heaters it was fine to just connect them to a supply that comes on at night, and they did the job.
With 'smart' new heaters and radiators, they generally require a 24 hour maintained supply to run the electronics, timer etc. The Haverland geo-dry radiators have a single mains lead and appear to require a 24 hour supply, so presumably they have now been wired to the rest of house supply, so you would not benefit from the E9 daytime periods of heating (which is needed with radiators, but not with storage heaters)

I feel this needs a serious look into whether the radiator model you have is actually the best for your particular 2-CU supply arrangement.

Just to add-the new radiator in my bedroom for example, has two sockets beside it-one is the power socket and the other is the off-peak supply, so surely I can have this heater connected to the off-peak supply, but if I wanted the radiator on during the day, I can just change sockets…can’t I?

 

[Psych1965]

This is what I suggested you confirm. Depending on the system.

One system of off peak heating is that ONLY the storage heaters were on low tariff, ONLY when they were turned on through timeclock or teleswitch. General lighting and power was on daytime rate all the time.

A different system turned on the storage heaters, ALL electric was on a cheaper rate overnight…. Including power.
That would be the old E7 where people would set timers on their washing machines so they would run early morning on a cheaper rate and be ready for when everyone got up.

Now you have heaters coming off socket circuits, and possibly others being on 24hr supply instead of overnight cheaper rate (because the electrician moved the circuits from the off peak board onto the general) then all that may be on a high rate now.

We’re not sure yet how it’s all been done… but it might be that nothing is coming off the cheaper rate now, so there’s no need to have it.

If it’s like the second system I suggested above, then everything is cheap rate overnight, whatever board it is coming from.


Do you know how to read your meter? Ie you could check if the cheaper reading is going up at all when your heaters are on now.

Thanks little spark-as I said earlier two of the new radiators are on the off-peak supply so I’m not concerned about higher bills. I am concerned that I wouldn’t be able to turn those on during the day if if it’s chilly. I do know how to read the meter but I’m not using the Heaters yet because I don’t need them. My flat hasn’t been that cold. The Electrician should be coming back this week or next week so I can have this discussion with him and figure it all out. I do have two sockets in my bedroom-so one of them is off-peak and one of them is peak. I’m wondering if I can keep the radiator connected to the off-peak and if I need it during the day, I can just plug the heater into the power socket? But to reiterate-two of my new heaters are on the Off Peak supply. I think his plan is to add an Off Peak supply socket for my living room heater so that I can keep it on the Off peak supply, but if I need to turn it on outside those hours, I’d be able to switch it over to the power supply. Does this make sense to you, i.e., surely this would cover all bases?

 

[brianmoooore]

Sockets on an automatically switched supply are not a good idea at all. All it takes is for someone to plug something such as a switched on hairdryer or radiant heater into the socket when it isn't energised and later you have a burnt out ruin.

 

[Psych1965]

Sockets on an automatically switched supply are not a good idea at all. All it takes is for someone to plug something such as a switched on hairdryer or radiant heater into the socket when it isn't energised and later you have a burnt out ruin.

Hi Brian-thank you for the above. I'm not sure I understand-are you able to explain the above in layman's terms? To be clear-the only appliances/electrical devices that are plugged into the Heater (Off Peak) supply are my heaters. This has always been the case-even with the storage heaters. What I meant was that if I wanted heat (my radiators on) at a time when the Off Peak supply was not on-I could plug the radiator into a Power (on all day) socket-correct?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Hi Avo-I’m out at the minute so will be brief, but just to say that two of the new heaters have been installed on the off-peak supply so they only come on at certain times of day, which is fine for me, but I need to find out whether, if I set the timer on the Heaters, the fact that they are getting turned off when the off-peak time stops is that gonna affect the internal timer of The Heater? I need to put this to the manufacturer as well.

I don't know the behaviour of your heaters, but I am concerned that if power is removed (eg E9 going off) then on restoration of power (E9 coming back on) the heater will not automatically come back on. Being electronically controlled, I would expect it to require a button push or equivalent. But maybe it will be OK. If it was under wifi/ app control, and you've asked it to be 'on', that command may be refreshed when power is back, so it may then switch on, and it would be OK.
This could be checked by talking to the manufacturers or supplier.
I had a brief look, but the subtleties of this situation don't seem to be covered in the user instructions.

The timing clock in the heater probably has battery backup, so it should keep correct time and the programmer will hopefully remember what it's supposed to be doing after power is removed.

The electrician is coming back so he can do whatever I want him to do. I was advised by EDF that anything that is on the power supply between 11:30 pm and 6:30 am will be charged at the lower rate.

Is the cost of off-peak electricity at night on the house sockets etc, the same as the cost of off-peak electricity for the heating & water on the E9 timings? I got the impression that EDF supply a dual MPAN meter for E9, so there may be different rates?

 

[Psych1965]

I don't know the behaviour of your heaters, but I am concerned that if power is removed (eg E9 going off) then on restoration of power (E9 coming back on) the heater will not automatically come back on. Being electronically controlled, I would expect it to require a button push or equivalent. But maybe it will be OK. If it was under wifi/ app control, and you've asked it to be 'on', that command may be refreshed when power is back, so it may then switch on, and it would be OK.
This could be checked by talking to the manufacturers or supplier.
I had a brief look, but the subtleties of this situation don't seem to be covered in the user instructions.

The timing clock in the heater probably has battery backup, so it should keep correct time and the programmer will hopefully remember what it's supposed to be doing after power is removed.

Is the cost of off-peak electricity at night on the house sockets etc, the same as the cost of off-peak electricity for the heating & water on the E9 timings? I got the impression you have a dual MPAN meter, so there may be different rates?

Thanks a million for this, Avo-yes, this is exactly what I want to ask the manufacturer tomorrow-whether any timings that I set the timer to (to come on/go off) will be affected if the power supply to that circuit is off at various times throughout the day. I have actually observed the following: the clock has been set on the radiator-and whenever it comes "on"-the Heating circuit is live/active-the time is correct and does not need to be re-set. Whether this indicates that the timer settings on the heater would also be retained is another Q.

 

[Psych1965]

This is what I suggested you confirm. Depending on the system.

One system of off peak heating is that ONLY the storage heaters were on low tariff, ONLY when they were turned on through timeclock or teleswitch. General lighting and power was on daytime rate all the time.

A different system turned on the storage heaters, ALL electric was on a cheaper rate overnight…. Including power.
That would be the old E7 where people would set timers on their washing machines so they would run early morning on a cheaper rate and be ready for when everyone got up.

Now you have heaters coming off socket circuits, and possibly others being on 24hr supply instead of overnight cheaper rate (because the electrician moved the circuits from the off peak board onto the general) then all that may be on a high rate now.

We’re not sure yet how it’s all been done… but it might be that nothing is coming off the cheaper rate now, so there’s no need to have it.

If it’s like the second system I suggested above, then everything is cheap rate overnight, whatever board it is coming from.


Do you know how to read your meter? Ie you could check if the cheaper reading is going up at all when your heaters are on now.

Little spark-I may be a little slow, but what did you mean by your last sentence above, i.e., I could check if the cheaper reading is going up when my heaters are on? The difficulty is this: I have lights on, and various other appliances connected to my Power socket-so both my Heating and Power meter units will no doubt increase throughout the day-though obviously, the Heating Supply circuit should not be increasing at all outside the hours stated by EDF. In fact, let me check this right now....

So, I just went to the communal cupboard where my meter is (I live in a block of flats) and neither number (for each circuit) increased. I don't have my heaters on right now, but I do have the lights on, and other appliances on-neither number increased.

Incidentally, EDF had written to me:

"Our records show that Register 1 (with the lower read) is the Power circuit and that Register 2 (with the Higher Read) is the Heating circuit". So, it's easy for me to know which circuit my heaters are connected to-but I've not put them on this season yet and am resisting doing so for the moment.

Ironically-it's my Heating circuit reading (Off Peak) that is higher than my Power (Peak) circuit reading. Maybe the Off Peak isn't that cheap afterall? I need to say this: my storage heaters were not working well over the past 2-3 years, and I am 100% certain they were not that efficient-they were over 20 years old. So, my higher Heating circuit reading may be because I had them on a lot and they were not that energy efficient. This is why I have replaced them.

 

[brianmoooore]

the only appliances/electrical devices that are plugged into the Heater (Off Peak) supply are my heaters.

Do you men plugged with a 13A plug and a 13A socket, or hardwired, where the heater cable is permanently connected to something that looks like a switch.
It is potentially very dangerous to have 13A sockets that can become live by remote switching.

 

[Psych1965]

Do you men plugged with a 13A plug and a 13A socket, or hardwired, where the heater cable is permanently connected to something that looks like a switch.
It is potentially very dangerous to have 13A sockets that can become live by remote switching.

I have no idea what you mean. Let me attach a photo (ignore the back of the radiator-it needs painting over): so, the socket that you can see here is the socket that my former storage heater was always plugged into. And now my new radiator is plugged into it. It is an Off Peak supply. It is clear that this socket is on the heating circuit because outside of the "live" hours, the display is off. I even tried to plug my hair dryer into it and nothing happened when I turned it on. So we know for certain that this socket is an Off Peak (Heating) circuit. I have no idea whether it is hardwired....I'd need to ask my electrician.

 

[Psych1965]

a few things that might need clarified.

Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating.

All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before.
They may not change during GMT/BST changing


Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply.

Can we get a photograph of your boards…. Showing the teleswitch, meter and boards… so we can maybe understand how it’s been connected.

We may find nothing is switched with the teleswitch now, but the change in rate.

Littlespark-here is a photo of the meter-it gives me two readings-it continuously changes from Power to Heating.

 

[Psych1965]

I don't know the behaviour of your heaters, but I am concerned that if power is removed (eg E9 going off) then on restoration of power (E9 coming back on) the heater will not automatically come back on. Being electronically controlled, I would expect it to require a button push or equivalent. But maybe it will be OK. If it was under wifi/ app control, and you've asked it to be 'on', that command may be refreshed when power is back, so it may then switch on, and it would be OK.
This could be checked by talking to the manufacturers or supplier.
I had a brief look, but the subtleties of this situation don't seem to be covered in the user instructions.

The timing clock in the heater probably has battery backup, so it should keep correct time and the programmer will hopefully remember what it's supposed to be doing after power is removed.

Is the cost of off-peak electricity at night on the house sockets etc, the same as the cost of off-peak electricity for the heating & water on the E9 timings? I got the impression that EDF supply a dual MPAN meter for E9, so there may be different rates?

Sorry-I only just saw your last Q re: "Is the cost of off-peak electricity at night on the house sockets etc, the same as the cost of off-peak electricity for the heating & water on the E9 timings? I got the impression that EDF supply a dual MPAN meter for E9, so there may be different rates"?

According to what EDF have said:

All power used on the Heating Circuit is charged at the Lower rate.

One of these circuits (the Power Circuit) provides power 24 hours a day to your sockets lights etc. This circuit has cheaper rate electricity overnight from 23:30-06:30, all other hours are billed at the higher rate.

Power is only supplied to the heating circuit during the stated hours, and that all power used on the Heating circuit is charged at the lower rate.

With the Economy 9 meter the energy charged at the lower rate is everything used on your Heating circuit plus everything used overnight (23:30PM to 06:30AM) on your power circuit.

I don't know if the cost of the electricity (TV on standby etc) on the power sockets (overnight) is the same cost as my heating & water tank at Off Peak times.

All I know is that my usage for the Heating circuit is always higher/more than for my Power circuit.

 

[Psych1965]

a few things that might need clarified.

Check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak… not just the heater circuits. (Which I think you have done)
There were systems in the past that had 3-rate tariffs, for general power, overnight heating and 24hour heating.

All teleswitches will come on at slightly different times, to not introduce a massive surge across the country at one moment. Could be 5 or 10 minutes after or before.
They may not change during GMT/BST changing


Electric radiators may need a 24hour supply, so the reconfiguration at the fuse boards might have been moving the circuits from the off peak to general board…. Or taking the entire heating board off the switched supply.

Can we get a photograph of your boards…. Showing the teleswitch, meter and boards… so we can maybe understand how it’s been connected.

We may find nothing is switched with the teleswitch now, but the change in rate.

Littlespark: re-"check ALL your electric is cheaper rate off peak: it is my understanding that only my heating/radiators and water tank are connected to the Heating/Off Peak supply-everything else is on the daytime (peak) supply.

EDF wrote: "With the Economy 9 meter the energy charged at the lower rate is everything used on your Heating circuit plus everything used overnight (23:30PM to 06:30AM) on your power circuit".

But I believe only my radiators and water tank are on the Off Peak supply.