EIC and EICR issues

[Googers]

Hi folks, first time poster and soon-to-be landlord's assistant (letting my partner's property out now that she's moved in). We've just had a new consumer unit installed and an EIC produced for the works as required, and the electrician told us he checked every socket and circuit as part of his works - even replaced two faulty sockets during his checks.

Given that he's tested everything (wording from our invoice below states as such) we are wondering if the EIC can be used in place of an EICR. As it's likened to an MOT, you wouldn't MOT a new car, but then a new CU and circuit checks is more of an engine replacement than a new car, yadda yadda...

Invoice states:
1 NEW FUSE BOARD . Replace old fuse board . Supply and fit new 10-way RCBO fuse board with SPD Surge protection . Upgrade meter tails to 25mm . Upgrade main earth to 16mm . Upgrade gas earth bonding to 10mm . Upgrade water earth bonding to 10mm if the existing 6mm is not connected . Test all circuits . Issue Electrical Certificate*

*t's and c's

Anyway, we are supposed to have tenants moving in tomorrow but as we only have the EIC and not the EICR, the agent isn't budging. Has anyone got any experience with using an EIC and supporting info to show that all areas have been checked, or are we going to have to try and arrange an additional check that will delay the tenancy?

Cheers!

 

[James]

I think this is a customer beware issue,

as contractors, we should be supplying the documentation requested by the customer.

if they say "I am renting out this flat and the agent says I need an EICR, also the fusebox is from the middle ages, can you change it for me"

in there minds, they are making it better and should not be penalised for giving you the work of a board change by discovering that the document that you give them will not be accepted by the agents.

We all need to up our game just a little, all it takes is a comment when starting the job, is this property about to be let out? if so then it will need an EICR document.
It will take a little more inspection before i can issue it but as I am on site anyway, how does £0 to £30 (insert your own cost) sound??

 

[loz2754]

I think this is a customer beware issue,

as contractors, we should be supplying the documentation requested by the customer.

if they say "I am renting out this flat and the agent says I need an EICR, also the fusebox is from the middle ages, can you change it for me"

in there minds, they are making it better and should not be penalised for giving you the work of a board change by discovering that the document that you give them will not be accepted by the agents.

We all need to up our game just a little, all it takes is a comment when starting the job, is this property about to be let out? if so then it will need an EICR document.
It will take a little more inspection before i can issue it but as I am on site anyway, how does £0 to £30 (insert your own cost) sound??

This is exactly my approach. The customer doesn't necessarily understand the rules and is looking to us for guidance. So I always ask what it is they have been told they need and by whom. Is this going to be a rental property? I also offer advice on things like smoke and CO alarms. Not in a sales pitch kind of a way, but gentle coaching. And above all else, I tell it like it is in a kind but no nonsense way. If they've been told by someone they need a rewire/new fuse box/whatever, and I can clearly see that non of that is necessary, I will take the time to work through the pros and cons. And then I go home, tired and broke! because I talked them out of all that work.?

 

[Dartlec]

I think this is a customer beware issue,

as contractors, we should be supplying the documentation requested by the customer.

if they say "I am renting out this flat and the agent says I need an EICR, also the fusebox is from the middle ages, can you change it for me"

in there minds, they are making it better and should not be penalised for giving you the work of a board change by discovering that the document that you give them will not be accepted by the agents.

We all need to up our game just a little, all it takes is a comment when starting the job, is this property about to be let out? if so then it will need an EICR document.
It will take a little more inspection before i can issue it but as I am on site anyway, how does £0 to £30 (insert your own cost) sound??

It's also a good way of getting a good reputation - and it's fair enough that you can't expect a part-time landlord to be fully across the regulations so sometimes pointing things out at an early stage is appreciated.

....or they think you are trying to scam them for more money of course compared to the handyman who quoted 200 quid for the lot, but you can't do much about that...

This is where the Government and/or the schemes should be doing a lot more to raise awareness with landlords and encouraging good practise...

 

[Burtones]

https://www.----------------------------/media/1203/best-practice-guide-1-issue-3.pdf

That's an interesting read. A few things I wasn't aware of including the part about being able to leave 6mm bonding in place if it has been in for some time and has no signs of thermal damage.

I work on the voids section for a large housing trust and whenever void work is carried out we are in first and all C1's and C2's are dealt with anyway, bonding is always upgraded to 10mm, faults repaired, circuits (or full installation) rewired as required (with minor works, eic's as necessary) and then when all other trades are finished they send another electrician in to do an eicr before making ready to let.

Because of this, I've never seen a board change without all the other work undertaken as well which is why I was interested in general as to how much you are responsible for.

“Circuits that are defective or non-compliant with BS7671 in a way that would result in immediate or potential danger must not be reconnected”

Do any of you come across this where the customer does not want to pay for other work so you have to refuse to do a board change or leave circuits disconnected?

 

[Vortigern]

I am doing this right now the same situation. And I have encountered this previously. Estate/management agents will insist on an EICR for a new tenancy. I am doing an EIC and EICR as a matter of course for a DB change. Doing the EICR as well is quite easy as I have all the figures I need from the EIC. However I think that the idea of electrical safety can be shown to have been met with an EIC or an EICR. Both show that all circuits have been tested and comply with BS7671 as required by the ESPRS requirements. But estate agents will insist on the letter of the law and call for an EICR whatever the situation as that is what it says. Personally I think that is black letter law whereas I am more teleological in my approach and would accept either as proof the installation is safe. And at the same time I understand the estate agents/landlords dilemna and will happily cater accordingly without demur.

 

[Vortigern]

A good discussion with some cogent arguments on a very topical issue. It has certainly elucidated certain elements I had not thought of, especially the fine detail of the difference between the two reports.

 

[dodger421]

Do any of you come across this where the customer does not want to pay for other work so you have to refuse to do a board change or leave circuits disconnected?

I have, thankfully, not experienced that situation. I’d like to hope most people could be convinced to spend a little extra money when the consequences of the danger are explained reasonably but I’m aware thats probably wishful thinking.

 

[ipf]

I'm sorry but that isn't correct. The certificate only certifies the work carried out, i.e. replacement of the distribution board. Other than for a new installation (including full rewire) it cannot substitute an Electrical Installation Condition Report and rightly so.

You're correct of course, my mistake in the early hours.
No allowance for 'limitations' with an EIC whilst, in such a situation, they would be required....even if complete testing is carried out (more thoroughly than is required in a periodic)
It's a bit tedious though, failing an EICR, replacing a CU/DB complete with EIC and then issuing another EICR, ?......... depends on the situation, I suppose..

 

[Risteard]

You're correct of course, my mistake in the early hours.
No allowance for 'limitations' with an EIC whilst, in such a situation, they would be required....even if complete testing is carried out (more thoroughly than is required in a periodic)
It's a bit tedious though, failing an EICR, replacing a CU/DB complete with EIC and then issuing another EICR, ?......... depends on the situation, I suppose..

There shouldn't be any need to rewrite the EICR though - just be clear about the remedial works done on the EIC (or MEIWC for other types of works) and ideally cross reference the original report.

 

[ipf]

There shouldn't be any need to rewrite the EICR though - just be clear about the remedial works done on the EIC (or MEIWC for other types of works) and ideally cross reference the original report.

That's the generally way. Hence the ?..................?

 

[Mike Johnson]

How do you guys get the Smilies to work, they just don't appear on my posts?
??????

I didn't do that, its not fair.

 

[loz2754]

How do you guys get the Smilies to work, they just don't appear on my posts?
??????

I use the Android keyboard smilies on my phone.???

 

[Micktw68]

Ok.I’ve read the whole thread and I’m still unsure of my own position. I was called in to carry out remedial work discovered on another sparks EICR , (CU Change for RCBOs/water/gas bonding and IP light in zone 2) I’ve issued my Minor works and EICs for the work I’ve carried out -effectively making the original EICR now satisfactory but the letting agent is insisting I issue a satisfactory EICR , I’ve been trying to make the point that as I didn’t carry out the original report I cant re-issue it without carrying out my own EICR on the property.
Who’s right and does my EIC/MWC appended to the original unsatisfactory report cover the LL

 

[westward10]

You are correct if they want another EICR then they should pay for it. I would personally state your Certificates cover items highlighted in the EICR do not say this should make it satisfactory.

 

[Flanders]

We get this a lot . I try and explain that the . original EICR cover the whole installation stating what is correct and well as what is wrong. The EIC and or minor works states that the observations( the wrong bits) have now been corrected . So now you have all paper work to confirm that the installation is safe .If they want an EICR then that's a separate job and should be charged for separately. Then you open a can of worms and find things that the first electrian missed and issue them an unsatisfactory report ?