EICR no RCD given a C2

[Robert51]

Hello,

I've recently had an EICR done on my residential let. The property is a 1-bed flat in London on the 8th floor, about 10 to 15 years old.

The EICR has not been issued but the electrcian has said as things stand, it is unsatisfactory with a C2 rating. This is due to the the fuse boxes did not have RCD for all the circuits in the flat (specifically the lighting and socket circuits). It has the older MCB instead. The electrician has recommended the boxes be changed to an RCD one which will cost about £600 or an RCBO for £750 in order for the EICR to be satisfactory and no other issues were observed and all the wiring were great.

I was slightly surprised by this. I've been reading up regulations since just to learn a bit more about what is required.

I completely do not mind remediating something that is required, however, I don't want to be taken for a ride and scared into installing something that is a nice to have. I have read that not having RCD is does not necessarily result in an unsatisfactory report but it's will result in a recommendation only to upgrade. What a C2 rating means is that it's not safe for continued use. However, if this is the case, surely most of the properties out there would fail the EICR which doesn't make sense to me especially given it's a new building.

I'm stuck between getting another electrician to do another EICR or not, however, I don't know enough to determine whether what the current electrician is saying is correct. I was charged £90 for the EICR.

Any advice here would be really appreciated!

Many thanks.

 

[Robert51]

@Robert51 I'd contact niceic with your concerns, whilst the report was ridiculously cheap this company could be miscoding many many reports and they need pulling up.

I will speak with him first about everything and see what he says - I want to hear his side first before rushing into anything. However, this is one of the things that did crop up in my mind. I will update here if things do go down that route.

I guess for me, it is a lesson learnt!

 

[ipf]

I will speak with him first about everything and see what he says - I want to hear his side first before rushing into anything. However, this is one of the things that did crop up in my mind. I will update here if things do go down that route.

I guess for me, it is a lesson learnt!

I agree, on both counts. It's the best way of going about it......and you get what you pay for.

 

[Let me think]

Hi everyone, I got the EICR back for one of the flats that failed it. I've attached a pdf.

If anyone here could let me know what they think of the C2 ratings in here, it would be much appreciated. As I mentioned before, I am just looking to see if these ratings are correct and proper or whether the guy is looking for more work.

Much appreciated everyone.

Ignore the cost, time taken and grammar/spelling errors.

Agree with others, C2 for "no RCD protection" does appear to be harsh. However may be worth while having the person who conducted EICR to explain in more detail why they classified it as a C2. - BTW If property is 15years old and wiring hasn't been touched since then, it would appear to comply with 16th Edition and as such shouldn't be classified as a C2.

Also some of the figures quoted look too prefect i.e. calculated = measured. Yes, calculated and measured should ideally be the same, usually very close on new builds, but rarely have I see this on older builds especially across across multiple circuits

Mention of Ze being 0.06 ohms and also 0.1 ohms - could just be a typo (we all make mistakes)....all measured Zs figures appeared to be calculated using Ze of 0.1 ohms.

It would be good to see reports for the other flats as well, to get a better overall picture.

As for my own personal recommendation, even if report was satisfactory, I would still be looking to upgrade the CU unit to at least a dual RCD unit (all circuits to RCD protected), preferably an RCBO unit to give myself that extra peace of mind.

 

[Robert51]

I've had a response from him to my email. I will correct a few wording issues here and there as some of the English would make things a little difficult to read. I have also added a few questions in bold.

Lighting circuits we can consider as C3 if we are sure the property has got supplementary bonding but we can not check it as they concealed some where if the property has it then definitely we need the RCD protection for lighting circuit. (what usually happens when they cannot check for supplementary bonding visually?)

For the flat, you have not got even one RCD (I presume people here have generally agreed that zero RCDs is mostly a C3? Does the number of RCDs affect the rating?)

I do not want to charge you wrong but just I want to insure you and myself, if the flat gets any problem regarding by electric fault they will say at the end you were the inspector and this is your responsibility. (If he grades according to guidelines, surely it's not his fault if he's followed that? Have people here had to deal with legal issues when something bad happened even though they followed guidelines?)

I prefer to do the best then definitely in my opinion to cover myself need to replace the MCB for lighting circuits to RCBOs or RCD part for some flat so they have one RCD. The easy and cheapest way is you put all the circuit in one RCD for the flats.

He has offered to refund my money so I'm only paying for the 2 reports I got off him which I guess is nice of him. Some people would not even do this. But cost here is a secondary concern - what I'm most interested in is a report that is done according to guidelines and regulations, whether it's C2 or C3, I need to know the report holds up.

 

[Let me think]

I've had a response from him to my email. I will correct a few wording issues here and there as some of the English would make things a little difficult to read. I have also added a few questions in bold.

Lighting circuits we can consider as C3 if we are sure the property has got supplementary bonding but we can not check it as they concealed some where if the property has it then definitely we need the RCD protection for lighting circuit. (what usually happens when they cannot check for supplementary bonding visually?)

For the flat, you have not got even one RCD (I presume people here have generally agreed that zero RCDs is mostly a C3? Does the number of RCDs affect the rating?)

I do not want to charge you wrong but just I want to insure you and myself, if the flat gets any problem regarding by electric fault they will say at the end you were the inspector and this is your responsibility. (If he grades according to guidelines, surely it's not his fault if he's followed that? Have people here had to deal with legal issues when something bad happened even though they followed guidelines?)

I prefer to do the best then definitely in my opinion to cover myself need to replace the MCB for lighting circuits to RCBOs or RCD part for some flat so they have one RCD. The easy and cheapest way is you put all the circuit in one RCD for the flats.

He has offered to refund my money so I'm only paying for the 2 reports I got off him which I guess is nice of him. Some people would not even do this. But cost here is a secondary concern - what I'm most interested in is a report that is done according to guidelines and regulations, whether it's C2 or C3, I need to know the report holds up.

what usually happens when they cannot check for supplementary bonding visually?
It requires slightly more effort/work from a testing/verification perspective (hence more money spent) and will no doubt require removable of bath panel, light fitting, etc, all of which could result in cosmetic damage, to physical check for presence of bonding and to check it's integrity.

I presume people here have generally agreed that zero RCDs is mostly a C3? Does the number of RCDs affect the rating?
Based on what your electrician has said, then RCD will be required for lighting circuit in bathroom, if bonding is not sufficient. Catch-22 - will either need to confirm bonding is in place and sufficient if not can be made sufficient (costs involved) or have RCD/RCBO for all appropriate circuits (costs involved).

If he grades according to guidelines, surely it's not his fault if he's followed that? Have people here had to deal with legal issues when something bad happened even though they followed guidelines?
Thankfully not been involved any legal issues to date. Would hate anything bad to happen, hence previous recommendation to give you that extra piece of mind (assuming you can afford it).


On a separate note, if not already done so, would strongly suggest you also consider having smoke/heat alarms properly assessed (fire bridge can do this for you) to see if they are adequate and meet current regs. - One area where as a landlord you want to fully up to date, even it is going to cost extra to bring/keep you fully up to date.

 

[Robert51]

Thank you Let Me Think, that was a good insight into things!

I have come to an understanding with the electrician who has said he asked NICEIC and they have told him that the C2s should be C3. So he is happy to re-issue the EICR based one that.

I send NICEIC an email asking the rating with description of my situation as I did here in this forum, I also attached the EICR. I have actually got an email back from today too saying the below:

Good afternoon,
Thank you for your enquiry.
Based on the information provided, The observations should have only been given a C3 which is an improvement recommendation as stated in the best practice guide 4.

Unfortunately, we cannot comment on the length of time taken nor the amount he has charged as we haven’t seen the job that took place.

I guess that's pretty clear I think!

 

[Tommywest4]

what usually happens when they cannot check for supplementary bonding visually?
It requires slightly more effort/work from a testing/verification perspective (hence more money spent) and will no doubt require removable of bath panel, light fitting, etc, all of which could result in cosmetic damage, to physical check for presence of bonding and to check it's integrity.

I presume people here have generally agreed that zero RCDs is mostly a C3? Does the number of RCDs affect the rating?
Based on what your electrician has said, then RCD will be required for lighting circuit in bathroom, if bonding is not sufficient. Catch-22 - will either need to confirm bonding is in place and sufficient if not can be made sufficient (costs involved) or have RCD/RCBO for all appropriate circuits (costs involved).

If he grades according to guidelines, surely it's not his fault if he's followed that? Have people here had to deal with legal issues when something bad happened even though they followed guidelines?
Thankfully not been involved any legal issues to date. Would hate anything bad to happen, hence previous recommendation to give you that extra piece of mind (assuming you can afford it).


On a separate note, if not already done so, would strongly suggest you also consider having smoke/heat alarms properly assessed (fire bridge can do this for you) to see if they are adequate and meet current regs. - One area where as a landlord you want to fully up to date, even it is going to cost extra to bring/keep you fully up to date.

Can check to see if the metal pipes etc from the earth via the lights continuity if it’s more than 0.5. But check that I’m not 100% sure as don’t have the book in front of me then it would be a fail

 

[baldelectrician]

From the look of this the property is only 15 years old- what brand of consumer unit is there?

Can you send a photo?

You may be able to get replacement RCBO's for it and then save replacing the consumer unit.

 

[littlespark]

From the look of this the property is only 15 years old- what brand of consumer unit is there?

Can you send a photo?

You may be able to get replacement RCBO's for it and then save replacing the consumer unit.

It’s actually 16 years old now, as it’s a post from last year. Hopefully the OP has it sorted, got their satisfactory report and is letting out the flat

 

[GASC DAVID]

Thanks for the reply all.

Regarding the £90, it was likely due to the fact I had multiple EICR done with him. I asked around on MyBuilder and RatedPeople websites and the quotes were around £90 - £120. Is this a good range from your experiences?

I did ask the tenants how long he actually took and they said around 45 minutes with certainty.

I will get a hold of the report and post it here.

Thank you.

It's very hard to compete with these prices . The recommendation in GN3 is that for installation with less then 100electrical points then it's better not to do any samplings and actually check all point as according to statistical sampling theory " the minimum population size to get a meaningful results is 100"