elctric shock

[momin]

hi everybody. I'm new, so please excuse me if i do any thing wrong. My daughter had electric shock in the shower. I switched off the consumer unit., but it was still alive. so we had to pull her off the chrome hose which she was grabbing. we had a shared loop from our next door neighbour. He had some work done a few times previously a year ago. There was no marking on his workers van. we called the ambulance and she was taken to hospital. the electricity board was also called. they took out the main 60 amps fuse, but the radiators and pipes were still alive. he called in more senior electrician from the board. they too had never ever come across such a situation. the managers were called in as well. my loop was coming from next door. they went in. as soon as they put their meter to test, there was a big bang and a flash. when asked, what happened, the electricians said that my earth cable was hanging loose. the board , on our insistence, wrote to the neighbour to assist them in their investigations and to name the person who carried out his work. He has not responded. it is 6 months now. the board says they do NOT have any remit or power to force him. So what do i do now. Please, please advise asap.

 

[Notsosmart]

thanks . the board tested my house. every thing was ok. Kung-----what is periodic report and who issues it..

As Yooj & I stated this is a test & inspection report undertaken (periodically ~ in the case of domestic up to every 10 years) by a competent, experienced & qualified (ask for city & guilds 2391) electrician.
You state that the electricity board have checked your property & reported it ok (?) Did they issue an official report showing tests they have undertaken & a schedule of results?

Mark-------the neighbour did have somebody working there prior to the incident. I saw it my self about 3 times........the neighbor has refused to co operate. he is double faced and a rat. since the incident he does not speak to me and avoids me all the time. He has not replied to the letter the board sent him sometime back.

Time to get heavy I think, have you contacted an outside body like the HSE or maybe a solicitor for advice?

 

[ghost]

My blood also boils when people do not read and properly understand the message. I did not play with the electricity. the fault was in the loop from next door. he had electricians working there, not me. also the electricity board did a very very thorough check of my house. every thing was ok.

I wasn't implying you played with electricity mate, I was on about your neighbours so called sparks. I wasn't slating you at all, I was quite concerned about you. Maybe you should read my message more carefully before slating me.
Regards.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

I will just stick my oar in to say that, there is no way I would be satisfied as the situation stands.

It is not acceptable that your neighbor has the ability to cause electric shocks to happen in your house. especially if you are not on speaking terms with him to be assured of the soundness of his installation.

So what are your options?

• Earth spike, ie make your installation a TT one (not my favorite option)
• RCD fuseboard ( I would be fitting one of these at the moment in any case, as they limit the shock current to 30ma what ever the earthing situation is)
• Separate connection to the DNO's earthed sheath that is not in next doors property and to which you have access to check.

Other more off the wall ones.

• Call one of the free "had an accident not your fault" companys and see if they think you have a case (not for the money, but for the identity of the person culpable under law.
• Do the same if you have free legal advice bundled with your home insurance (lots of policys do as standard)
• What I would do is probably end up being arrested for disorder, as I would not accept being ignored by someone who has nearly caused the death of my child and won't give me an account or an apology for his/her actions.

Personally I think a PIR would tell what you already know, which is your installation is basically sound and the problem lies in the earthing arrangements. The DNO have already confirmed this after all.

I hope this has been useful but more so that your daughter is OK now?

Warmest Regards

Martin

 

[momin]

I wasn't implying you played with electricity mate, I was on about your neighbours so called sparks. I wasn't slating you at all, I was quite concerned about you. Maybe you should read my message more carefully before slating me.
Regards.

sorry mate. Nothing personal. this matter has gone off track. all i wanted to know was that the board has not done anything further to pin point the cause of fault. and the neighbor is uncooperative. What sould i do next.

I wasn't implying you played with electricity mate, I was on about your neighbours so called sparks. I wasn't slating you at all, I was quite concerned about you. Maybe you should read my message more carefully before slating me.
Regards.

we now have an independent supply line given by the electricity board. we also have full board report on the work and inspection they had done. What we don't know from them is the actual cause of the fault. the ele. board says 2 possibilities. (1) either the underground cable or (2) the fault in in neighbor's house because of the earth cable tangling loose. This means his electrician did not reconnect our earth cable whist working there. The ele. board wrote him to name the electrician who done the unproffesional and dangerous work. the neighbour has refused. he knows he is at fault. so what can I do to go further. Its a dead lock. And mates my dot is ok. thanks for your concern.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

See my suggestions above

 

[cbw]

Police? Sometimes can be helpful, at the end of the day someone has been injured, you have not received a satisfactory explination, sounds like some laws have been broken.

I would definately be looking at no win no fee and sueing both your neighbour and his electrician, both should be insured for such eventualities

IF the electrician is above board. ie registered and insured a claim for injury may well be on the cards, if not registered or insured you may have to go for the neighbour personally as his insurance will not cover unregistered modifications and the spark personally ie house/car/savings and it will take foreever and cost a fortune.

CBW

 

[gorilla]

sorry mate. Nothing personal. this matter has gone off track. all i wanted to know was that the board has not done anything further to pin point the cause of fault. and the neighbor is uncooperative. What sould i do next.



we now have an independent supply line given by the electricity board. we also have full board report on the work and inspection they had done. What we don't know from them is the actual cause of the fault. the ele. board says 2 possibilities. (1) either the underground cable or (2) the fault in in neighbor's house because of the earth cable tangling loose. This means his electrician did not reconnect our earth cable whist working there. The ele. board wrote him to name the electrician who done the unproffesional and dangerous work. the neighbour has refused. he knows he is at fault. so what can I do to go further. Its a dead lock. And mates my dot is ok. thanks for your concern.

You could try to pursue a accident claim through one of those no win no fee solicitors. Your neighbour would have no choice then but to say who done the work. If they don't it could be taken as they done it and they would need to pay up.

 

[andyb]

Your local authority should be interested in this, if someone has been doing the type of work that requires the disconnection of earthing then this comes under part p.
It's up to him whether or not he gives the name of the person carrying out the work but part p applies equally to the homeowner as it does the those carrying out the work.
I bet that if he was being prosecuted he would soon come up with the 'electricians' name
Of course this all depends on how serious your local authority is in implementing part p, some are very keen and there have been sucsesful proscutions including the homeowner. Others (like mine) don't seem to do anything.
Good luck.

 

[d1scv]

The name of the 'electrician' is of no matter. The Person Ordering Works [the homeowner] is fully responsible- under any circumstance.

But- without a report from the supplier as to the condition of the installation prior to their works, I fear you are stuffed.

The cause of your daughters accident has vanished.

And was she lucky to get away with this !!

 

[Yooj]

I cannot help thinking that the general theme is that there should be a lynching, when all of the facts have not presented themselves.

Momin, can you please indicate what it is your are looking to achieve?, I.e. Are you looking to sue your neighbour for damages, sue the electrician, or simply to understand how to estabish whether your current electrical installation is safe, or something else?

There are a number of things to bear in mind with the element above:

1/ Sueing the neighbour or electrician.

• To do this, you will need to have some very clear facts, i.e. Was either the neighbour or electrician negligent...Under law, there is no requirement for someone to admit their own guilt (one of the oldest laws we have), and as such you will either need to have the HSE or the courts to force the neighbour/electrician to provide the necessary facts...This is fraught with problems, and likely to be expensive and time consuming. The initial view of the DNO and HSE is whether the risk has been mitigated, i.e. can the same thing happen again...Given that you stated that the DNO has given you an independent supply now, then this is deemed that the risk has been sufficiently mitigated. Because the shock was not fatal, the DNO have done what is expected of them, i.e. they performed a risk assessement and have acted accordingly by giving you your own supply. Furthermore, the DNO themselves have been unable to pinpoint where the fault occured, and the reality is that the fault might actually have been on their network rather than in your neighbours house.
• If you are intent on pursuing your neighbour/electrician, I would suggest that you contact the Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB) first. They will provide you with sound advice as to what are your options. They will even put you in touch with specialist lawyers, some of which will have an initial free consultation...To be honest, I would steer clear of the no-win-no-fee sharks.
• Expect the bitter pill from any of the above organisations stating that your best course of action is to try to resolve this amicably with your neighbour.
• If you are not intending to sue your neighbour/electrician, and you just want to make sure that everything is safe, then this might be the approach you take with your neighbour...He might well be suitably embarassed and ashamed that something he/his electricain has done nearly killed your daughter, and if he thinks your are going to take him to court, might well be the reason he is keeping quiet. On the other hand, if he understands that all you want to do is make sure everything is safe, and that it cannot occur again, then he might be more approachable.

2/ Establishing whether your electrical installation is safe.

• The only way to do this within the current realm of the Wiring Regulations is to have a Periodic Inspection and Test (as stated previously) culminating in a Periodic Inspection Report (PIR).
  The outcome of a PIR is a professional judgement of the person producing the PIR as to whether your electrical installation is safe for continued use.
• Without seeing the DNO's report, I cannot ascertain whether this would provide you with the necessary guidance or not as to whether your installation is safe. Therefore, i can only say that a PIR should be carried out.

Yooj

 

[d1scv]

The more I think this through- it is not as simple as I first thought.
MAYBE our rouge electrician was faced with all the correct earthing arrangement- and one extra, seemingly redundant, earth that he ditched.
MAYBE he had no reason to suspect it was the main earth for next door. Would you?

Then I have this nagging doubt. The installation that lost its earth from next door could never have had any form of certification. Even if you got a good Ze- everything would grind to a halt if you could not trace the connection.

Sorry to peer at the other side of the coin, but in court, which installation was faulty?

 

[oldtimer]

When I hear stories like this I seem to find myself lucky not to come across installations like this but last night was an howler.

I viewed a flat with my daughter and was told that due to the previuos late uccupant being elderly the local council put in a "safety breaker board" board about 10-12 years ago and yep sure enough there was a old split board BUT when I reched down to see why the main earth cable was in a big coil I found that it was not connected and when I looked up at the main incomer from the stair I found a 16mm2 MICC cable "dangling" in mid air with the termination pot not even conected to a termination box instead both L&N were connected into blocks where 2 double insulated 16mm cables supplied the board.

Yep you live and learn

 

[momin]

As Yooj & I stated this is a test & inspection report undertaken (periodically ~ in the case of domestic up to every 10 years) by a competent, experienced & qualified (ask for city & guilds 2391) electrician.
You state that the electricity board have checked your property & reported it ok (?) Did they issue an official report showing tests they have undertaken & a schedule of results?



Time to get heavy I think, have you contacted an outside body like the HSE or maybe a solicitor for advice?

yes! I think as u suggested I should contact HSE, Please advice what should I request them to do.

You could try to pursue a accident claim through one of those no win no fee solicitors. Your neighbour would have no choice then but to say who done the work. If they don't it could be taken as they done it and they would need to pay up.

Thanks gorilla. Should I make a claim again the neighbour? Or should it be against the electricity board.

The name of the 'electrician' is of no matter. The Person Ordering Works [the homeowner] is fully responsible- under any circumstance.

But- without a report from the supplier as to the condition of the installation prior to their works, I fear you are stuffed.

The cause of your daughters accident has vanished.

And was she lucky to get away with this !!

I have a report from the board on what they found at the neighbour's house i.e. earth cable tangling loose. Any good mate.

 

[d1scv]

I have a report from the board on what they found at the neighbour's house i.e. earth cable tangling loose. Any good mate.[/QUOTE]

Certainly a good start. But I still question as to if anyone would think it possible that this cable might be the means of earthing in another location.
My veiw now is that the problem was caused by a strange electricity board installation- coupled with the fact that there where no warning notices.

Though what notices should be used if the earth is supplied by next door- I have not a clue.

 

[momin]

I cannot help thinking that the general theme is that there should be a lynching, when all of the facts have not presented themselves.

Momin, can you please indicate what it is your are looking to achieve?, I.e. Are you looking to sue your neighbour for damages, sue the electrician, or simply to understand how to estabish whether your current electrical installation is safe, or something else?

There are a number of things to bear in mind with the element above:

1/ Sueing the neighbour or electrician.

• To do this, you will need to have some very clear facts, i.e. Was either the neighbour or electrician negligent...Under law, there is no requirement for someone to admit their own guilt (one of the oldest laws we have), and as such you will either need to have the HSE or the courts to force the neighbour/electrician to provide the necessary facts...This is fraught with problems, and likely to be expensive and time consuming. The initial view of the DNO and HSE is whether the risk has been mitigated, i.e. can the same thing happen again...Given that you stated that the DNO has given you an independent supply now, then this is deemed that the risk has been sufficiently mitigated. Because the shock was not fatal, the DNO have done what is expected of them, i.e. they performed a risk assessement and have acted accordingly by giving you your own supply. Furthermore, the DNO themselves have been unable to pinpoint where the fault occured, and the reality is that the fault might actually have been on their network rather than in your neighbours house.
• If you are intent on pursuing your neighbour/electrician, I would suggest that you contact the Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB) first. They will provide you with sound advice as to what are your options. They will even put you in touch with specialist lawyers, some of which will have an initial free consultation...To be honest, I would steer clear of the no-win-no-fee sharks.
• Expect the bitter pill from any of the above organisations stating that your best course of action is to try to resolve this amicably with your neighbour.
• If you are not intending to sue your neighbour/electrician, and you just want to make sure that everything is safe, then this might be the approach you take with your neighbour...He might well be suitably embarassed and ashamed that something he/his electricain has done nearly killed your daughter, and if he thinks your are going to take him to court, might well be the reason he is keeping quiet. On the other hand, if he understands that all you want to do is make sure everything is safe, and that it cannot occur again, then he might be more approachable.

2/ Establishing whether your electrical installation is safe.

• The only way to do this within the current realm of the Wiring Regulations is to have a Periodic Inspection and Test (as stated previously) culminating in a Periodic Inspection Report (PIR).
  The outcome of a PIR is a professional judgement of the person producing the PIR as to whether your electrical installation is safe for continued use.
• Without seeing the DNO's report, I cannot ascertain whether this would provide you with the necessary guidance or not as to whether your installation is safe. Therefore, i can only say that a PIR should be carried out.

Yooj

I assume by DNO u mean the electricity board. They have given us a new independent supply line. they have said it will never happen again. they have checked all the wiring in MY house. To pinpoint the fault they will have to dig up the OLD supply cable and see if there is any damage. They said they will NOT do this. And the other possibility is that it could be the loose earth cable of ours in the neighbours house. we had a loop from there ie the supply cable went there first and then came to my house. But now, after the incident, the board supplied us our own independent supply, coming directly to my house from the street. Should I sue the board OR the neighbor. My daughter is still scared to use the bath when she is alone at home. It also haunts her of the incident and also me and my wife whenever we thing about it. I was about to go to work when it happened. Switching off the consumer unit did not do anything. the current was still there. we pulled her off the hose with a towel wrapped around our hands. when the electricity board electricians arrived, as mentioned before, they pulled out the 60 Amps fuse from the main supply box. The current was still there. they mentioned they have never ever seen this scenario before in their life. So when they went next door to investigate further and put their test equipment to test, there was a big bang and a flash. And they said it was because the earth cable was hanging loose and wasn't connected. So who do I sue. As gorilla suggested to sue the neighbor under accident claim. Thanks please advice further.