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ELECSA Certification Scheme Elecsa Part P Assessment
T
tonys
Never happened for the simple reason being, it would only house a few thousand JIB Electricians.
And what would happen to all the others who believed that part p is their vehicle to work as an Electrician ?
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Engineer54
Forget the JIB and part P. The criteria for being a qualified electrician will be directly related to your qualifications and experience. Most of these National Register of Qualified Electricians have 3 maybe 4 levels of Electrician. The lower level(s) are very limiting as in what area's and in what capacity you are allowed to undertake professionally...
That's how many jobs/trades/professions are structured, you wouldn't want your GP removing your spleen, you'd want an experienced, competent surgeon.
It's about levels of skill, not 'one size fits all' because it doesn't!
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Engineer54
I would hope that the top level electrician, would be competent to undertake any general electrical work. As was expected in my day.... lol!!!
Unfortunately the training of today, doesn't give the trainee that experience to be competent in all areas of general electrical work .... which is a shame !!!!
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mart1711
This is probably the best thread i have read since joining this forum. There has long since been a "5 day wonder" term bounded about but i think as shown here it all varies on a personal level. It is quite common for a newly qualified person in any trade to turn out a job that is technically superior to that of someone who has become complacent in their long standing job. Part P or variant there of is here to stay... Fact... Part P was not set out to lose electricians work but to cut out cowboys and put a traceable record of work in just one (commonly DIY performed) area of work. For some reason there seems to be plenty of insecure time served tradesmen worried over this. There wasn't too many complaints in the beginning of part p where only feasibly people in the industry could quickly get on the scheme and a lot of sprkys benefitted from the sudden influx of work. In terms of a trade card, in effect part p is basically that. The term is DOMESTIC installer, this gives the person limited scope of work all round, working generally in basic single phase systems in the domestic environment only. In terms of assesment one thing that will not be tollerated is unsafe workmanship, yes they want people on the scheme but not at a cost of safety. We have to keep things real here. Yes we work in a potentially dangerous industry, but at times it misses things at times it over governs things, a simple fact is no matter what we do at work a parallel can be drawn to driving a car. We all use cars/vans and they are without doubt the most dangerous "tool" we use. One good day on your test and you have a lifetime of potential to cause harm to other people through your actions. The fact that having and driving a vehichle is less regulated than what we do is a farce and puts things into perspective. Difference is one bad driver doesnt necessarily cost any work to any other driver, hence the lack of complaints and rants about them etc
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malcolmsanford
The problem with Part P is that it just dosen't work, it's a toothless law, that was forced upon the local building controls who in all honesty don't want anything to do with it.
It as not cut out cowboys as cowboys continue to work without notifying the LABC, what is as done is made expereinced time served sparks who work mainly on non domestic work unable to legally work in their homes without having to pay a tax on their work.
It as also created a sub strata of the domestic installer. The majority of which are trained to pass an exam not in how to carry out electrical work, as the dependancy on the training centres existance is on people passing exams not failing them.
Part P acceptance is also IMO a pretty low standard as well, after all these schemes are not going to cut their own noses off to spite their faces, and not accept them onto a scheme, as that would be finacial suicide. This is why the IET/ECA are introducing level 3 qualifications into the industry to try and bring standards back .
There are always good and bad in every training method, you will get the good 7 week guy and the bad time served sparks, it's just IMO the chances there are going to be more poorer 7 week guys that time served. Mainly down to experience
It as not cut out cowboys as cowboys continue to work without notifying the LABC, what is as done is made expereinced time served sparks who work mainly on non domestic work unable to legally work in their homes without having to pay a tax on their work.
It as also created a sub strata of the domestic installer. The majority of which are trained to pass an exam not in how to carry out electrical work, as the dependancy on the training centres existance is on people passing exams not failing them.
Part P acceptance is also IMO a pretty low standard as well, after all these schemes are not going to cut their own noses off to spite their faces, and not accept them onto a scheme, as that would be finacial suicide. This is why the IET/ECA are introducing level 3 qualifications into the industry to try and bring standards back .
There are always good and bad in every training method, you will get the good 7 week guy and the bad time served sparks, it's just IMO the chances there are going to be more poorer 7 week guys that time served. Mainly down to experience
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mart1711
Well it's these different folks pulling different strokes that make the world go round! You do have some points but in some ways I agree to disagree. I think part P has definitely made things safer for domestic premesis if not better for contractors. I think there are very few cowboys now which is good. I can personally say that 99% of calls regarding work the client asks whether I am "part p" whether they know what that means or not! Talk of a level 3 qualification has been talked about for some time and I am sceptical whether this will finally be pushed through. In terms of actually registering with part p I think if you are a spark of any calibre at all, getting on the scheme is a breeze and the cost of 400 a year or thereabouts is negligable. For a start it can be offset against your earnings saving you 80 quid then the rest evened out over a years work is nothing. As I said awareness is out there for the customers so this 300 quid is basically a years part p advertising and leverage tool. Also submitting each job to labc also really helps keep track of jobs and certs done and makes book keeping easy!
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tonys
Mart
Ive been running ads in my locals and so far had 6 phone calls and not one person as asked me if I'm part p. They phone me because I'm a Qualified Electrician with 27 years experience. That's all my advert says, along with my name location and telephone number.
The big boxes advertising napit etc and part p have started to slowly disappear since Ive started to advertise, either they have to much work or charge to much money, or maybe the public want someone like me.
Ive only got small jobs, but they suit me while I'm doing other works. Had one looking for a quote over the phone but I won't entertain when they tell me what I have to do and how long it will take. Also had one where they wanted me to certify a builders job ha ha building control would not give them a completion certificate with out the electrical cert. GOOD JOB another gobby cow telling me all I have to do is plug in my tester with the flashing lights lol
So imo part p is crap and just an umbrella to let the semi skilled shelter under because Labour needed to create a false jobs economy like the bloated public sector back room office staff and managers.
That's my rant lol
Ive been running ads in my locals and so far had 6 phone calls and not one person as asked me if I'm part p. They phone me because I'm a Qualified Electrician with 27 years experience. That's all my advert says, along with my name location and telephone number.
The big boxes advertising napit etc and part p have started to slowly disappear since Ive started to advertise, either they have to much work or charge to much money, or maybe the public want someone like me.
Ive only got small jobs, but they suit me while I'm doing other works. Had one looking for a quote over the phone but I won't entertain when they tell me what I have to do and how long it will take. Also had one where they wanted me to certify a builders job ha ha building control would not give them a completion certificate with out the electrical cert. GOOD JOB another gobby cow telling me all I have to do is plug in my tester with the flashing lights lol
So imo part p is crap and just an umbrella to let the semi skilled shelter under because Labour needed to create a false jobs economy like the bloated public sector back room office staff and managers.
That's my rant lol
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Jeffmo65
This is probably one of the most contested issues in "our trade" . My story is after serving in the Royal air force as a propulsion fitter , working my way up the ranks via on the job training and experience for 9 years , i decided that a change of career was unavoidable so yes youve guessed it i did a 5 day wonder course . I totally agree that the course does not set u up to be a qualified electrician and i would agree that most would benefit from having some experience working through another company . What i will say is it all depends on the individual , some people are theoretically gifted and can breeze through the theory side of things ( i place myself in the middle hear ) and then you get the practically gifted . I do think that practicallity with common sense is the order of the day . After doing my 5 day wonder , i did my 16th edition ( not hard I hear you say ) which teaches you where to look for stuff in the regs , if this is carried out then over time the quality of these practical workers will or should become very good indeed . I was going to set up on my own after doing the 16th and part p but as it happened got offered a job as AN ELECTRICIAN with a generator and ups company . 5 years later i was the installation manager and qualifying supervisor with eight TIME served sparks (not the right word )under me . None of them had any gripes about my background as i could and can do the job as good if not better than them . I became the qualifying supervisor after being assessed by both NICEIC and Napit of which we are registered with . Although the job is quite specific we are involved in most aspects of 3phase and single phase installations , ie wiring ,trunking conduit , distribution and changeover panels .
This makes a point that its not what you learn at a college but what you learn overtime and that will also depend on the individual . So to all you time seved sparks and good 5 day wonders where all trying to earn a crust , just some are better than others .
Gripe over
I'm considering taking the plunge with ELECSA. Only my opinion but I think the Brain Scadden book on Testing and Inspection is very good.
I did my Part P a few years back and that was EAL assessed and EAL on line exams etc. My Part P sounds a bit different to most. It was 35 weeks, 2 evenings a week, 2 1/2 hours per evening. One evening theory and one practical. Learnt a lot.
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Jeffmo65
Clicon , you have seen my input obviously . in my opinion you did i think what all part p'ers should do , this would give a little more suitability in the way of practical training . Theory ( and i will probably get get dragged across the coals for this ) is very important but be honest have you ever seen an electrician actually doing an adiabatic equation to work out suitability of CPC requirements . Yes you should be able to find out the information to do it but come on this is the real world . Most domestic installs are relatively simple unless you go down the 3 phase route for a large property but electrics is electrics . I personally would go for it and good luck in getting the work . If you live and breath the trade then you will be fine .
Can I just add that I went on from Part P to do the 2330 over 3 years and this year completed my Level 3. During Level 2 I also took and gained the 2382. There were people with me on the Level 3 2330 who had done these 4/5 day wonder courses to get a Part P cert and TBH it showed! 2391 next!
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mart1711
Still dont buy all the anti part p stuff. Like i said after tax it works out just over £300 for a year. 60p a week!!! The customer gets a nice certificate which always goes down well and in the case of elecsa they give out a nice folder to put all your job paperwork into!!! I had no problem with my asessment, the guy who arrived was able to tell right away what kind of tradesman you are. He just needed to know that you knew how to complete the necessary tests and make installations safe. THIS CAN ONLY BE A GOOD THING!!! Just remember before part p absolutely ANYONE could have turned up at your door to put your new consumer unit in!!!
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mart1711
Strangely coincidental a nice lady in Kensington today asked if my firm was "part D compliant"!?!?! Lol
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Engineer54
They still Can, and DO!!! So are you saying that ALL you registered Part Pee electricians, are competent electricians??
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mart1711
No not entirely, but they have had to at least shown some level of competence, rather than none at all. Just remember part p covers domestic only. I for one have no qualms over some "lesser" qualified people working in this small part of the industry. Get the basics right (polarity/cable size and termination/rcd installation etc) and the domestic set up is quite a basic and safe environment to work in. I don't think. Part p is great, But by default it's BETTER than what was there before >>>> nothing!!!
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Ponty Massive
ehh????
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Engineer54
I think your deluding yourself to some extent, maybe to substantiate the fee's your being charged!! There always were cowboys, whether trained cowboys or not!! There is no different now, you only have to read the posts on this and other forums to see that hasn't changed. Do you really think that it has stopped those ''anybodies'' from taking on electrical work in peoples houses since Part Pee??
Part Pee isn't a bad thing in it's essence but for whatever reason, ...has become nothing more than a Cash Cow machine. It has been well and truly high jacked by the unscrupulous providers and even the LABC's into squeezing as much cash out of this ledgistration as it possibly can!! There is absolutely no policing of the system whatsoever by the providers, or the LABC's the later hasn't the manpower to police it, and the providers don't want to lose face, on there so-called proven competent members being found out that they are Not Competent tradesmen at all.
So at the moment, you will still have to cough up your 450 odd quid for membership registration and i haven't quite made out as yet, if you also have to pay for your yearly assessment on top of that membership fee... If you do, ...hey-ho, more cash to cough up!! lol!! The truth is your all being led a merry dance on this Part Pee crap, what you really need is a National Register of Qualified Electricians, then you won't need these scammers to dishonestly in many cases prove your competence. Give that NRQE teeth and policing will be in place, very similar to what doctors and other professions already enjoy!!!
Part Pee isn't a bad thing in it's essence but for whatever reason, ...has become nothing more than a Cash Cow machine. It has been well and truly high jacked by the unscrupulous providers and even the LABC's into squeezing as much cash out of this ledgistration as it possibly can!! There is absolutely no policing of the system whatsoever by the providers, or the LABC's the later hasn't the manpower to police it, and the providers don't want to lose face, on there so-called proven competent members being found out that they are Not Competent tradesmen at all.
So at the moment, you will still have to cough up your 450 odd quid for membership registration and i haven't quite made out as yet, if you also have to pay for your yearly assessment on top of that membership fee... If you do, ...hey-ho, more cash to cough up!! lol!! The truth is your all being led a merry dance on this Part Pee crap, what you really need is a National Register of Qualified Electricians, then you won't need these scammers to dishonestly in many cases prove your competence. Give that NRQE teeth and policing will be in place, very similar to what doctors and other professions already enjoy!!!
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Engineer54
So what is the point of Part Pee then?? Geezus if it was as easy and as basic as your suggesting, how come some of these so called Part Pee competent electricians can make such a balls-up when they take on this basic work??
I really don't understand your reasoning, you complain about before Part Pee incompetent people could work on electrical installations, and in the next breath have no qualms about incompetent electricians being registered to undertake exactly the same work??? No wonder Part Pee is in such a god awful mess!!!
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mart1711
You are taking my points entirely out of context. I used the term "lesser" in inverted commas for a reason as there was no real better description. You have used the word incompetent. I stand by what i have said. The domestic area of our industry is just one tiny part of it, and yes, it is a relitively basic part of it. Sorry you scoffed at this remark but it is indeed fact. If someone has shown to anyone (be that part p asessor or any other body for that matter) that they are capable of the skills required for doing a job then they should be allowed to do so. For domestic work, as said above, you would want them to have all the basic knowledge of cable selection, why we have and choice/selection of rcd's etc calculating disconnection times, checking efli and so on. There is no need to know the ins and outs of every electrical principle, or be over qualified. A couple of months ago i passed my 2391, this may be a good qualification to have on one of these schemes, but making that mandatory is a choice for whoever is in charge i guess. The schemes are also legally bound to ensure all contractors are covered by an insurance policy. This also is a good thing for all. Everyone knows in this day and age we live in world of blame culture. Everything has to have a paper trail and be recorded. This i believe is the main reason behind part p. Acoording to the fire brigades of the south east of england the aount of fires caused by electrical faults has been reduced by OVER 60% in the last ten years. Whether its part p or any other reason we are moving in the right direction!!
As a side note i subcontrated a job in London out to a firm in victoria last month as i had no time to complete it. They are NIC approved and the 3 guys who did the job were well into their 40's and were fully time served tradesmen.. So they said... The quality of the work was a disgrace. There were even necessary cpc's missing in 2 places. These so called experts had left a potentially dangerous installation. I have since emailed to complain and still am awaiting reply. Anyone can do things the right and wrong way!!!!
As a side note i subcontrated a job in London out to a firm in victoria last month as i had no time to complete it. They are NIC approved and the 3 guys who did the job were well into their 40's and were fully time served tradesmen.. So they said... The quality of the work was a disgrace. There were even necessary cpc's missing in 2 places. These so called experts had left a potentially dangerous installation. I have since emailed to complain and still am awaiting reply. Anyone can do things the right and wrong way!!!!
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Engineer54
What can i say on the above??, ...I rest my case!!!
If you wrote to the NIC, you'll be waiting a very long time for that reply. ....And when you do, ...if you do, that reply isn't going to be to your liking either. They will do absolutly nothing, that goes for the LABC's too, that's a big part of the problem, nothing is being policed!! The only time you see the providers jumping into any action, is when there logo is being fraudulently used!! lol!!!
As for the rest of your post, yes insurance is a good thing to have behind you, but i wonder just how many successful claims have been made where so-called registered not-so competent electricians are conserned?? And do you really think that Part Pee has stopped the ''anybodies'' from still doing electrical work in the domestic sector, ....of course it hasn't!!!
Look, ....everything in the garden looks wonderful and rosy on paper regarding Part Pee, unfortunately that's where it stops on paper!! These organisations are only interested in what serves there purposes best, and that doesn't include the best interests of it's members, the electrical industry or Part Pee. If anything it has been detrimental to our industry, from segmentation, to the lowering of basic standards. Just look at the entry level, to become a so-called registered competent electrician for gods sake. These poorly trained people are getting into our industry via the back door, and more importantly into unsuspecting peoples homes!!
If you think that Part Pee has improved an electricians lot, you are very much in the minority. You really need to look at the bigger picture, the present system is just another nail going into the electrical industries coffin!!! It won't be too long, before You'll all be classified a semi skilled persons in the domestic sector!!!
There's good and bad out there irrespective of their qualifications or membership of a scheme. One of the reasons I decided to get some electrical qualifications was that I'd ask 6 "electricians" the same question at work and get 6 different answers. I thought OK I'll get qualified and make my own decision from a point of knowledge. There was a 20mm steel conduit job at work (sockets and lights) and not having done it (conduit) before I offered to mate for the sparks doing it to gain experience. At the time I was mid-way through my Level 2 2330. This guy was 236, 2391, 16th, JIB etc etc and he was the "best" one there. We did the bending and fitting then ran all the single cores. Me being keen piped up "Do we test it now?" The guy looked at me and said "You can chuck a Martindale in if you want!". I thought that's not right so said "What about the lights?". He walked over to the switch, flicked it and said "Yep, they work!".
The other day on site I thought I smelt an electrical burning smell. Walked into the mess and said to the guy sitting there, his reponse, without taking his feet off the desk was "It'll still be there after lunch!"
The other day on site I thought I smelt an electrical burning smell. Walked into the mess and said to the guy sitting there, his reponse, without taking his feet off the desk was "It'll still be there after lunch!"
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Engineer54
clicon,
Your observations have always been the same throughout the ages. There has always been good and bad in every discipline. That has nothing to do with Part Pee being a crock of crap in it's present form though!! It's been turned into a money making machine, defeating the very purpose of it's original objectives. None of the organisations involved with this ledgistration has any interest or motivation to change what it has become, because it is what it is, ...a Cash Cow for them!!
Your observations have always been the same throughout the ages. There has always been good and bad in every discipline. That has nothing to do with Part Pee being a crock of crap in it's present form though!! It's been turned into a money making machine, defeating the very purpose of it's original objectives. None of the organisations involved with this ledgistration has any interest or motivation to change what it has become, because it is what it is, ...a Cash Cow for them!!
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