Electric heating advice

[JCElectrical]

Hi folks,

A relative of mine has recently brought a small flat and needs some heaters installed. There is no gas supply to the property so electrical heating is the only solution however I am a little out of touch with what's currently available as I moved away from install work some time ago.

There are only 3 heaters to go in, one small one each in the hall and bedroom. One large one in the lounge. I'm thinking a storage heater for this one as economy 7 is available and it's the largest space that's most likely to be used. Two of them have existing supplies with very poor panel heaters currently installed which are to be replaced. I will be adding an additional circuit from the db to supply the third heater.

Any particular types or brands to look out for? Are these quantum heaters worth the money? Or is fan assisted the way to go? I remember a good few years ago fitting a system similar to this one that used a central programmer with pilot wire controls to each heater but I can't find the info for it. This seemed like a great solution but there also seems to be lots of new options on the market. Google has raised more questions than answers!

Also talking about the eco7. It's a single supply to the db and sse have said the lower rate is available 12-7am. I'm used to seeing a dedicated off peak board with seperate final circuits ... what's the usual method of connecting a storage heater to this single supply setup? Linking the on and off peak terminals from one supply? Assuming the storage side has a timeclock that can be set to suite the eco7 hours and the cable etc is rated for the max demand.

For reference I am a qualified sparks but I moved into electrical maintenance some time ago and have only been persuaded to dust the tools off as a favor! Works will be tested and certified. I would appreciate some advice from anyone that's installed any of the newer gear.

Cheers

 

[davesparks]

Storage heating will only be economically viable if all of the heating and hot water is uses the off peak supply.
Just one storage heater is likely to be more financially viable on a flat rate supply.
The lower cost night rate units for economy 7 are offset by the high rate for day units.

Electric heaters are as near to 100% efficient as it is possible to get whether they are cheap panel heaters or the expensive snake oil heaters on the market these days.

 

[Zerax]

I also have a small flat without gas... so I've been through the same thought process as you. I agree with DaveSparks... Economy 7 tariffs involve a far higher daytime rate, so the only way to make it economical is to shift as much usage as possible into the night period. This means washing machines and dishwashers with delayed start, all water heating at night etc.

In the end for me... I decided to use cheaper convection heaters with very good controls.

I then spent money on drastically improving the loft insulation and swapping out the old hotplate hob for an induction one.

The latest thinking is to do away with the unvented cylinder with immersion and go with electric shower and one of those hot water taps in the kitchen... still pondering on that one.

All of this means that it costs me on average £50/month for electricity... which I don't think is too bad.

 

[Deleted account]

Please dont take the following as absolute gospel, but...

Economy 7 system

Day tariff 23kwh
Night tariff 7Kwh


Normal standard 24hour same tariff

15Kwh

So as much as the night tariff is only 7Kwh it’s bumped the day tariff up to a rediculous 23kwh.
Probably better to have the standard rate of 15 KWh rate unless you know you are going to use loads of electric late at night to the early hours.

The system is wrong. It should be if you don’t have gas you are given an extra low night tarrif and the day tariff as competitive as if you had gas.
So in theory night time 7Kwh day 15kwh.

Disclamer: these figures are from memory last time I checked.

 

[Zerax]

Please dont take the following as absolute gospel, but...

Economy 7 system

Day tariff 23kwh
Night tariff 7Kwh


Normal standard 24hour same tariff

15Kwh

So as much as the night tariff is only 7Kwh it’s bumped the day tariff up to a rediculous 23kwh.
Probably better to have the standard rate of 15 KWh rate unless you know you are going to use loads of electric late at night to the early hours.

The system is wrong. It should be if you don’t have gas you are given an extra low night tarrif and the day tariff as competitive as if you had gas.
So in theory night time 7Kwh day 15kwh.

Disclamer: these figures are from memory last time I checked.

Sounds about right to me... I pay 14.12p /kWh with 15p /day standing charge

 

[masterH]

Electic heating is expensive these days. first thing to do is upgrade all the insulation you can, then install air to air heat pump (air comditioner in reverse), then get rid of storage tanks and use instant water heaters. then find the cheapest deal for standard rate electic

 

[Deleted account]

Electic heating is expensive these days. first thing to do is upgrade all the insulation you can, then install air to air heat pump (air comditioner in reverse), then get rid of storage tanks and use instant water heaters. then find the cheapest deal for standard rate electic

Air source heat pumps are very expensive to install and I wouldn’t advice if you have gas. But if you have e7 you will more than likely save enough money for it to pay for itself.

At some point I want solar panels powering air source heat pump in my property, but I will need to do the installation courses first and save some money.

 

[Zerax]

Air source heat pumps are very expensive to install and I wouldn’t advice if you have gas. But if you have e7 you will more than likely save enough money for it to pay for itself.

At some point I want solar panels powering air source heat pump in my property, but I will need to do the installation courses first and save some money.

The last time I looked at solar panels... they didn't make any economic sense, it's cheaper to just buy your power from the grid. This is of course assuming that we don't have any mad electricity price increases in the next 20 years... which seems unlikely now that the cost of wind has come down and we seem to have finally cracked the grid storage problem.
[automerge]1568547960[/automerge]

...Air source heat pumps are very expensive to install...

I've heard that before... but I was looking at one of the warm air type systems... where you have a single indoor unit and the compressor unit outside. They do a complete kit for less than £800 which gives 5kW of heating... Just some holes to drill and all pre-gassed. What have I missed ?

 

[Deleted account]

The last time I looked at solar panels... they didn't make any economic sense, it's cheaper to just buy your power from the grid. This is of course assuming that we don't have any mad electricity price increases in the next 20 years... which seems unlikely now that the cost of wind has come down and we seem to have finally cracked the grid storage problem.
[automerge]1568547960[/automerge]

I've heard that before... but I was looking at one of the warm air type systems... where you have a single indoor unit and the compressor unit outside. They do a complete kit for less than £800 which gives 5kW of heating... Just some holes to drill and all pre-gassed. What have I missed ?

Solar panels i agree I’ve always thought not economically viable and still think that. But I plan to install myself so lack of labour costs would help.

Like the idea of the warm air compressor £800.

 

[JCElectrical]

Thanks for the replies all. Some really useful info, appreciated.

 

[EricMark]

small flat

In a house with loads of room and the roof is yours, water heat storage, heat pumps and the like may well save you money, but in a small flat unlikely to be space to fit heat pumps, or water heat storage and the brick heat storage is not controllable enough.

The heat recovery units are now made with the pipe through wall being the heat exchanger, so they will help keeping it ventilated without cold drafts, but main question has to be life style, and how well insulated. So some pointers.

If we think power in is power out with electric then speed is critical. Want a room for 3 hours and it takes an hour to heat before ready for use, then heating is 75% efficient, heat the room in 20 minutes and it's 90% efficient. Does not quite work out that way, but sure you can see the idea.

However room with single glazed windows, if you use a fan heater then air is being blown past the cold windows, so although the fan heater gets room to temp faster, it may not be more efficient.

Following on from this a heater on the inside wall will circulate between that wall and one opposite, if the wall opposite has poor insulation then return air across the floor is cold, so placing heater 90 degs from wall with window works better.

Next is inferred, it is really hard to control inferred, but in rooms used for a short time like bathroom, it gives instant heat, so very good as long as you remember not to aim it at a window.

I for many years lived in a house where heating worked, open plan with TRV's up stairs, and a Myson fan assisted heater in main living area, since it worked never thought about it.

Then moved in with mother to look after her, and the central heating did not work, some days bedroom cold, some days living room cold, and for first time I sat back and tried to work out why. So answers were, it had doors to rooms so heat did not circulate, but main thing was the sun in the bay windows. In the living room 5 thermostats would show 5 different temperatures.

Step one was wireless thermostat put in room being used, and TRV's set to stop over heating, but it didn't work, so started moving the thermostat around, found best location to stop hysteresis was close to radiator, then realised TRV's were likely ideally placed as they monitored in the main return air so keep the room temperature static.

So the oil filled radiator in theory is not as good as a convector heater because of speed to heat room, but in practice them retaining heat means you don't notice it switching off/on and your comfortable as a lower average heat as the troughs are not as low.

Ideal would be a panel heater with a solid state switch so it can turn off/on once a minute if it wants without the thermostat failing, but that would be expensive, so oil filled radiator is next best. Get one on wheels first, and move it around the room until you find best location.

 

[Sintra]

Why do not you just google it?..Read some reviews, that's not that hard

Hi Thomas and welcome to the forum. Your reply to this thread is not how this forum works so has been edited. I’m sure that the op is capable of using google.