Electrician and QS on trial for death of woman

[rompling]

I Know its been posted about before but it seems the trial has begun ....
Very sad
Emma Shaw electrocuted 'because electrician was UNQUALIFIED' | Mail Online

 

[Poult12]

Dont know if anyone has seen this or posted this up already.

http://fuseservices.co.uk/successfu...ectricians-out-there-and-those-who-dont-test/

http://www.mgselectricaltraining.co.uk/cms_files/pdf/rogue_electrician_prosecuted.pdf


http://www.yatepeople.co.uk/Builder...al-work-Yate/story-18664896-detail/story.html

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Haven't read through the whole thread, but from the first few pages there does appear to be quite a few misconceptions.
The inspection conducted was an Initial Verification.
The form used was an EIC.
The design (and perhaps also the construction) of the installation was prior to the introduction of the 17th edition, and as such there was no requirement for RCD protection for either the cable, or the circuit.

My understanding, is that despite cables being routed in prescribed zones, a dry liner managed to screw through one of the cables.
Apparently, other trades are not aware of prescribed zones, despite the fact that they have as far as I am aware, been in use since 1966.
One of the complaints that the Coroner at the inquest had, was that the prescribed zones were not shown on any drawings (don't believe I have ever seen drawings that indicated prescribed zones). The Coroner also concluded that the QS system as operated by the NICEIC is clearly open to abuse (shame that it took a death before anyone noticed this).

As it stands the Regulations require that a new installation, or an alteration/addition to an existing installation be inspected and tested during and after construction to ensure that the work satisfies the requirements of the Regulations.
As such, it is conceivable that the damaged cable was inspected and tested during construction, before the cable was damaged.
It is also conceivable that the damage to the cable would not necessarily have been discovered during initial verification, or any subsequent inspection and testing.

I find it rather odd, that while the 'Mate' and the QS are being prosecuted, neither the person who damaged the cable, nor the company that employed him are being prosecuted.

 

[pepparz]

how would the person know he was screwing into a cable?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Other than the cable being live, I doubt that there would be a practicable method for the person to know that they were screwing into a cable.
However not placing the screw in a prescribed zone would ensure that they would not screw into any cables routed in such a zone.

 

[NickD]

The sub judice rule and contempt of court

 

[D Skelton]

Agree totally on all you are saying, ironically this sentence reveals that you believed this guy to be guilty even before his trial (something you could not possibly know) - we all make assumptions based on the media and/or gossip

Oh he blatantly was! And I agree, I did think he was guilty, although I only read about it after the trial. But the fact that everyone 'knew' he was guilty before the trial meant that he couldn't receive a fair one and he walked!

That said, it's the very reason why I don't go blabbing on facebook like thousands of other people do about 'pedo this' and 'pedo that' when someone's been nicked, because just this very thing can lead to a guilty man walking.

 

[NickD]

That said, it's the very reason why I don't go blabbing on facebook like thousands of other people do about 'pedo this' and 'pedo that' when someone's been nicked, because just this very thing can lead to a guilty man walking.

Or an innocent person being persecuted. In Newport, S Wales a person was victimised and eventually hounded out of their home by the locals, because he/she was a paediatrician. I wish I was joking. Idiots.

 

[D Skelton]

Or an innocent person being persecuted. In Newport, S Wales a person was victimised and eventually hounded out of their home by the locals, because he/she was a paediatrician. I wish I was joking. Idiots.

I read about that one too! Haha

That's what happens when whole towns only breed with others from within it's boundaries!

 

[southsea1201]

The latest court report:
Emma Shaw begged Andrew Cross to come home after she said a pipe had fallen off and ‘the electrics were sparking’. Miss Shaw, 22, was found dead in a storage room at her Jefferson Place flat, Grafton Road, West Bromwich, by Mr Cross. Two electricians are accused of breaching health and safety regulations following her death on December 14 2007.
Christopher Tomkins, 52, from Rowley Village, Rowley Regis, and 53-year-old Neil Hoult, from Dane Terrace, also Rowley Regis, both deny one charge of breaching the Health and Safety at Work Act. Prosecutors allege a form filled in by Tomkins on March 8, 2006, appeared to show he had carried out insulation testing on all electrical circuits in the flat that would later become home to Miss Shaw.
During the second day of the trial, a statement was read out by Mr Cross, who works as a gas fitter for the National Grid. The court was told he had left the flat at around 7.55am and had not seen anything differentwhile getting ready. His statement read: “That morning I was working in Bushbury, Wolverhampton. I left my mobile phone in the van.
“When I returned to the van at around 11.20am I saw Emma had sent me a message saying: ‘Andy I need you to come home. There is water all over the floor and one of the electrics keeps sparking.’” Mr Cross said his mother-in-law Diane Potter had also sent him a text.
His bosses then allowed him to go home.
Mr Cross had first checked on the couple’s son and then called the emergency services.
The court has previously heard Tomkins and Hoult were both employed by Anchor Building and Electrical Services Ltd, which carried out electrical work during the development of Jefferson Place in 2006. The trial continues.

 

[jackhammerJIM]

Too right,many years ago I worked as a QS for a firm and packed in because they wanted me to make up test sheets for houses rather than test each one,basically they wanted me to test something like 1 in 5 and adjust the figures slightly for the other 4.

I was in a similar position phil at a large firm i used to work at .

Told to test 11 houses in one day , test one and make the rest up .

dumped them on the bosses desk with no signatures .

 

[Midwest]

The sub judice rule and contempt of court

A lot to read there, but my personal opinion is that it's okay to continue discuss this case as it has been. If someone posted '........I have a mate who is a colleague of defendant 'A', and he said he said....' etc, then that might be considered to be contempt.

From what I've read here, is people discussing how the fault could of occurred, which is not contempt. Discussing how the fault could or could not have been discovered by the defendants, could be interpreted 'as anticipating the course of a trial or predicting the outcome', if that was likey to be read by the jurors or judge.

However this forum is not national media, but a dedicated forum about electrics, something jurors would instructed NOT to read by the judge whilst they are hearing the case.

So hopefully we should be allowed to continue our discussions.

 

[UNG]

But back to these fantastic rcds....really the idea is that this poor women on passing 30mA, should have tripped this rcd in milli seconds....if all all bonding and initial earthing is in place.....or an I missing something basic here...I am getting old...lol

It says test every 3 months how many people actually do it. Been to plenty of jobs where even a ramp test didn't trip the RCD

Because the QS (the assessed competent and trained electrical supervisor) is discharging his duties for him, checking all the work has been done correctly and signing all relevent paperwork to this effect! The bosses shoulders have sloped .......

An IT / AV company I worked for wanted me to be the QS so they could get NIC approved I declined because I didn't believe the directors would give me the time to do it properly. I don't think some people realise what they are taking on being a QS

I think we may find out an RCD was involved, 30mA is way to high, 10mA would have deffo saved her life. As she was kneeling it is fair to assume letting go was going to be a problem. Really highlights the fact 10 mA RCBO's may be the future in a domestic situation.

Nuisance tripping here we come. I was always taught an ELCB / RCD was secondary protection and was no substitute for proper circuit design and construction. The 30mA level is obviously a good compromise level and catches most problems assuming it is working correctly but there will always be that odd fault it doesn't

 

[southsea1201]

Christopher Tomkins had only completed the first part of a City and Guilds qualification when he was working in the flat where 22-year-old Emma Shaw was electrocuted, Wolverhampton Crown Court heard yesterday. This, the court was told, would have meant he was only qualified for the basics of the job, and not for testing installations in the flat when it was built around 21 months before her death.
Paul Gilson, a Health and Safety Executive electrical inspector, was asked by prosecuting barrister Mr Richard Matthews QC about this qualification during Tomkins’ trial yesterday.
He said: “It’s the basic qualification that probably an apprentice would expect to achieve to undertake assisting an electrician. Part two of the course is one that would normally be completed and passed by an electrician who would undertake an electrician’s work. It still would not justify ever being considered to be a test inspector.”
Tomkins, aged 52 and from Rowley Village, Rowley Regis, is accused of one charge of breaching the Health and Safety at Work Act. His co-defendant, 53-year-old Neil Hoult, from Dane Terrace, also of Rowley Regis, was his qualified supervisor who signed off the certification on the tests.
Mr Matthews told the court that, in a police interview, Hoult revealed he had known Tomkins was not qualified to carry out testing on the new-build flats at Jefferson Court in West Bromwich.
This, Mr Gilson said, should have alerted suspicion when Hoult saw Tomkins’ name on test documentation.
He said: “It should raise his concern, and he should make it evident to his supervisor and say: ‘I’m uneasy signing any paperwork that’s been filled in by someone that I know is not a test inspector’. That in my opinion is a flaw in his judgment.” The court has already heard that, after Miss Shaw’s death in December 2007, a fault in one of her flat’s circuits was found as a wire had been pierced by a screw, which in turn transferred current to a metal frame behind a wall.


Mr Gilson claimed this should have been detected during tests of the flat’s circuits. (Not sure that this is correct)
Mr Rex Tedd QC, defending Tomkins, said that although he was only qualified to that low level, he actually had 30 years of practical working experience as an electrician’s mate, and suggested that there was no way to accurately measure his true ability.
Mr Tedd also said that a number of facts filled out correctly by Tomkins on his written form were later recorded falsely, by another party, on the typed certified version that would have been sent to the flat’s owner. That included the fact he correctly recorded there was no residual-current device fitted, which may have presented a fatal incident, but on later forms the opposite was recorded. The trial continues.

Pretty unusual for no RCD in a new build in 2007!!! Looks like the QS (Hoult) is in more mire than Tomkins (the lackey)

 

[jimmymac]

It certainly puts things into perspective though doesn't it. I thought I'd had a bad day until I read this lot. I'm glad I'm not one of the guys in the doc, whether they are to blame or not. It must be terrible for the girls partner and family as well, I feel for them, I really do.

 

[rompling]

It seems the QS has been found guilty and fined - don't know how I feel now about it at 1st felt they were guilty not so sure after reading other peoples views
But £1000 and only 1 of the 2 fined don't seen right IMO
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2594192/Electrician-work-led-death-young-mother-fined-just-1-000.html