Emergency Lighting

[Spazz]

I have been asked to provide a quote for the supply and installation of emergency lighting in a large shopping center, I dont have a problem with this, but was wondering if anyone could recommend a product, I was thinking of the LED Emergency Bulkhead Weatherproof IP65

Also is there a regulation which specifies how much light per meter the emergency lighting must provide?? As I have mainly done smaller shops and flats


Thanks in advanced

 

[johnboy6083]

If this is a large shopping centre, then I would definately buy a copy of the Em lighting regs.

 

[Spazz]

If this is a large shopping centre, then I would definately buy a copy of the Em lighting regs.

Got my copy on its way

 

[telectrix]

on a large installation like that, i would expect that the lighting would incorporate emergency fittings, rather than have just a few of those small bulkhead lights stuck in here and there. without seeing the site, it's difficult to assess the requirements.

 

[snowhead]

Has the customer specified whether they want have any input into the look of the fittings or is it price only?
Centres are very particular about appearance.

Assume it's a new Centre?

 

[grantr37]

yes there are regulations on light output in commercial and public sites, such as hotels and shopping centres etc, now has the shopping centre got DALI? there's new rules and basically all lights in the building have to switch on and go full brightness when the fire alarm goes off, not just to remain on if already turned on...this rule came in because the safety inspectors found out about DALI and Liked it, and its going into all new shopping centres partly for this reason and partly as its energy saving...
you will need to look at an emergency lighting inverter with Batteries to be installed into the plant room, this powers up the lights when the power gets cut to the building either Automatically by the fire alarm system or by a failure, and also controls the lights by interfacing with the DALI unit and turning them all to full power when the fire alarm goes off...


for light fittings the place I would look is a company called White croft lighting(Google them) they manufacture and do wholesale for other manufacturers as well, they sell to the big new builds (Hospitals, Shopping centres, schools, University refits etc) and can send you out catalogues which as far as I know is a DVD and a big heavy hardback printed one about 4 inches thick that you can show to customers...they have lighting design software that helps work out the spread of light etc...and may be able to help a bit with figuring out pricing for your job...


I would look very carefully into taking on a contract in a large public building like that as I think that if the HSE,local council,or Insurance company inspect it or the fire service and they are not happy with it they can force it to be ripped out and changed/replaced and that might result in you being expected to pay for it....
I heard of a company getting a contract to do a site once, they misjudged the costs involved in a hurry to bid for the job and undercut the other cheapest company by £11,000 and the next one up after that was £25,000 more expensive again (£36,000 more than them)....they got the job , when it got tight they approached the customer who demanded that they stick to the cheapest price and refused to pay for the extra materials....so they were forced to go for cheaper fittings....
the site got inspected and they got accused of cutting corners, it got ripped out and they got forced to pay for the next highest priced company to re-do the lot, which meant that a load of extra charges and fees got slapped on and they ended up out by something like £60,000....so be careful with all the legal aspects as with these kind of things its a contract on paper and not just in name like other things get called...

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Big job like that, i'd get some help in. Alot of places can do the designwork for you with the sniff & whiff of many sovs

 

[Spazz]

Its a well known Shopping store (we know it as a center down here - but its a single store)

Its an existing store which has been open for a number of years, but last week when I was in the Fault management system failed for the lighting, plunging the store into complete darkness - at 9pm, unfortunately for them the local H&S inspector was also shopping in store - issued them with an improvement notice, and an order to close at dusk about 7pm (normally open till midnight).

When the store opened it closed at 6pm - never dark at 6pm - no emergency lighting installed what so ever - no fire signs, no EL, no nothing

As I helped to restore power they passed my detailed to the head office which asked me to provide a quote to install at end of week (all other work canceled).

I was going to suggest several units as well as a price and let them decide on which unit.

 

[grantr37]

if its just a single shop and not a shopping centre/mall with 80 odd shops +restaurants/cafes/toilets in it as well, as I had assumed by the original post , then it becomes a lot easier ...

 

[Spazz]

Just been looking at details on DALI - they dont have this system - they just have a central fault management (big posh RCD) which isolates different items (lighting, sockets, fridges, freezers, etc.

All lighting is in together - so when we found the key for the room, there was a fault on the board - we just reset and the power stayed on - manger told me it happened the night before as well at exactly the same time.

 

[Spazz]

if its just a single shop and not a shopping centre/mall with 80 odd shops +restaurants/cafes/toilets in it as well, as I had assumed by the original post , then it becomes a lot easier ...

Sorry - we know it as a shopping center down here as there is different sub shops leasing space from this one store.
Plus I am in Pembrokeshire - we dont have shopping centers - lol


To confirm this shop is a large (for Pembrokeshire) small compared to others they own, 100m x 75m unit with 1 main open space (where all food/items are on display) and then sub offices out the back

 

[Guitarist]

Do you not think that this job would be best left to a firm with experience in this field?

 

[Spazz]

Do you not think that this job would be best left to a firm with experience in this field?

I would of thought they had their own electrician they use - but clearly they dont - they have asked me for a quote, which I said I will have a look at - if its to big I will turn it down.

All I asked is what product is best and what is the min lighting requirement


You dont know if its to big for you unless you look at the job in the first place! nor can you learn unless you push your boundaries a little! I will never push them to much!

I was thinking if it was a simple EL system like a smaller shop then yes great - just more ELs, if it needs computer controlled systems then good bye!

 

[snowhead]

It sounds like they haven't got time to be in on the decision making.
Pick a fitting that you know you can get hold of quickly in the quantity you need.

I've been in major supermarkets when there is only E.M lighting on and it's pretty dark, but all the Exits and routes to Exits are illuminated by the E.M.

All the sub units will need carefull consideration.

You'll need to do a test at the end to prove it actually works with no other lighting on and possibly move or add fittings.
Doing it off plan doesn't always work out.
I'd expect they'll be getting a visit from the local Fire Officer as well, so you may have other work to do.

 

[Spazz]

I can get a large number of units - the problem was on the electrical side of the store you could not see your hand 1foot in front of your face (that dark), near the exit you could see as the street lamps outside were on - same as where the fridges and freezers where.

They are looking at an install on Friday 21st so they need this quote by Monday/Tuesday at the latest to clear the deposit.

The store has been made to close in daylight hours - reducing money they could make at night - they not happy as you can tell.

I can do all the testing and certification myself - no problem at all - I also have the H&S inspector on side but I cant contact him on the weekend (email came through this morning)

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Yep what the fire officer says needs doing is....gospel.


Also, if not sure about something, ring him up & ask.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Ps nick, theres alot that can follow from this. For example it'll all need testing monthly, youll be top of list. I have quoted year at time, nice payments for mostly easy money

 

[Spazz]

I was thinking of installing these small bulk heads 5 meters apart - this would light the whole shop up - looking at over 1000 units in total, was looking at decreasing the number if the lighting regs allowed it.

I was also thinking of a Single Phase Control DB in the supply room to enable testing to be done on a regular basis and safe isolation of the EL if work needed to be done on it.


All Im doing now is getting advice on products, regs and install method - then I can make my mind up by 12pm if Im going to say yes I can help or no I cant

 

[UNG]

When the store opened it closed at 6pm - never dark at 6pm - no emergency lighting installed what so ever - no fire signs, no EL, no nothing

Not even in the depths of winter, have they moved Wales!!!. When I last worked in Wales in the middle of winter it was dark at 4pm

 

[Spazz]

Yep what the fire officer says needs doing is....gospel.


Also, if not sure about something, ring him up & ask.

This was my first thought - but hes not in office today - out till Monday - I wanted to get a plan to him (in person) by 9am on Monday so he can pick at it then change if needed - quote in my lunch on Monday if all goes well

Ps nick, theres alot that can follow from this. For example it'll all need testing monthly, youll be top of list. I have quoted year at time, nice payments for mostly easy money

Already thought of this - I was going to quote for inspections for 1 year and 5 years - There are also another 10 stores around me from the same company which are in the same situation - no EL - so more work there if I play my cards right

 

[Spazz]

Not even in the depths of winter, have they moved Wales!!!. When I last worked in Wales in the middle of winter it was dark at 4pm

See your point - but its not Winter now!
They have a 28 day Improvement Notice - their reputation lays on this. They own over 1,800 stores (in 2009) and their name is know by all - yes one of the big 3!


Personally I dont see how on earth they passed their initial inspection when they opened with no EL at all same when they applied for their licence to open till midnight - that is one of the first things they would of checked for! - Someone messed up big time!

 

[tazz]

A job of this size, i would have thaught the architect would have prepered a full specification and design for approval by all those concerned, and by this stage the em lighting design is finalised. Personally I would bring in a comapany such a Menvier to Design, Supply and commission, with your company installing the system. This way you get the system designed to original specification and a good deal on the equipment.

 

[alarm man]

as tazz says,this sounds like a job which would benefit a central battery system,designed by the likes of cooper etc

 

[Guitarist]

I would of thought they had their own electrician they use - but clearly they dont - they have asked me for a quote, which I said I will have a look at - if its to big I will turn it down.

All I asked is what product is best and what is the min lighting requirement


You dont know if its to big for you unless you look at the job in the first place! nor can you learn unless you push your boundaries a little! I will never push them to much!

I was thinking if it was a simple EL system like a smaller shop then yes great - just more ELs, if it needs computer controlled systems then good bye!

I wasn't trying to insult you in any way. It just seems odd that something so important hasn't already been designed by someone who specialises in this field. I can understand the Company offering the work (once designed) out to tender, but to just ask someone to quote on "fitting emergency lighting" seems odd to me, when no 2 quotes are going to be the same.

 

[tazz]

After seeing new posts before and after my last all of which are good valid points, I can see its a existing store (me slow at typing again) Nik if its any help, in the large food stores we use the existing lighting and mod them to emergency fittings, with central battery units supplied by cooper menvier. This is more cost effective when talking 1000`s of fitting as you will possible only need to mod 400. This does mean rewiring to provided a constant feed and emergency power. But it meets the regs better as all lighting wil be at full brightness when on emergency power, compared to low brightness with normal self contained bulk heads. Hope this helps.