Estimating Software

[stimpy]

Evening, first post so go easy on me!

Up until now i've always estimated manually, trawling through the details etc.... I cover domestic, commercial and mid/light industrial with works up to £50k but more regularly below £10k.

I've now got an opportunity on two very large luxury new build single dwellings £100k+ each and feel uncomfortable in this range. Now whilst i've never lost out significantly and have made a decent wage for years i would like my estimating to be less time consuming and more structured, hence the interest in software.

I've done a little bit of research and some searches on here but wondered what folk were using, what was the easiest to use and most reliable?.

Thanks in advance...

 

[stimpy]

C - RIKEY!!! 50 viewings and no info!?.... This either means no ones using it or everyone is interested in it?....

Hmmmm

 

[SJD]

If you look at the old threads, Electrika got a few mentions; I tried it briefly but for my mostly small jobs (domestic, rarely more than a few £k), I decided I couldn't be bothered and just rely on Excel and manually checking the prices of stuff I don't more or less already know.

 

[Octopus]

TBJ I'm not sure how any estimating software is going to help you.

As you know its all down to the spec, the construction of the building and the way you agree changes and fixes with the client.

 

[SJD]

TBJ I'm not sure how any estimating software is going to help you.

As you know its all down to the spec, the construction of the building and the way you agree changes and fixes with the client.

I'll second that. I recently completed the electrics on a £100k extension, there were so many Extras, my final bill was close to double the estimate. For example, the spec was for 33 sockets/FCUs, we ended up with 53 sockets/FCUs. Fortunately the customer was more than happy to pay for the additional stuff, I just had to list it on the invoice. But you will get customers who get quite awkward in this situation.

 

[stimpy]

Thanks for replies...

I have no problem with gaining material prices, it's more for labour time allowance and having a set database with my material prices. Then add the ability to interchange %s on different elements and break down modules of the works.

And before you say excel or such like i do not have the skills/patience or time for this sadly.

Re suitability, it may be that i have misunderstood estimating software and am hoping for too much but i don't think so.

Oh, and another fly in the ointment maybe worth mentioning is i run Macs not PC and again would prefer not to partition/perverse my mac!.

 

[gazj82]

The only problem with a database of prices, is you have to keep the whole database up to date (which could be more time consuming than per job!), where as getting prices for materials for each job individually it makes sure you always have an up to date price.

Even things I think I know the price of in my head sometimes catch me out if I haven't purchased them for a while.

I use a simple excel spreadsheet for my workings, I might use duplicate sheets on big jobs, i.e a sheet for each section / area. Although like you my max job size is probably around 50k. I guess I might rethink things as you are when pushing 100k jobs.

I think the only time a database might be of use is when you have an office of several people doing quotes where the time saving for several people would outweigh the time of keeping a database fresh.

EDIT: Learning excel is worth it, it applies to so much more than just quoting, it can be used for cable calcs and many other usefull things.

 

[stimpy]

Yes, Excel certainly looks a useful tool.

My base prices don't really vary that much to be honest and i don't mind changing/updating/adding per larger jobs. And i wouldn't use the software on smaller works anyway.

I feel it's just a confidence thing with pricing, and i would feel more confident with a tried and tested system/equation on these larger works.

It's funny really, i've been a self employed sparks for 20 years now and running my own business for 10 years but no one ever taught me how to price - i've just been busy working. I've always been on the money when i've tendered up to around £25k but i guess i just don't price larger jobs regularly enough to feel confident and have certainly never priced something this large in 1 component.

My previously completed larger projects £40- £60k i have ran on an open book + % system with a developer with a rough idea given of costs.

I did buy a Spons estimating 'book' (shows how long ago!) a few years back but just got bogged down in the detail and didn't put the time in.

Unless someone chimes in with some good ideas i'll try the free Electrika software and do my usual muddle/trawl through method and see where i get. I had also considered using an electrical estimator for this tender as a third tool just to verify i'm in the right figures - though i do not currently know one.

 

[gazj82]

If your making money then you must be doing something right. I luckily worked for my Uncle for 15 years, when he started to get ill he taught me everything he knew about pricing, I spent the last 3 years doing all of it (for 5 men) before he finally retired. He used to use pen and paper (nothing wrong with the tried and tested way). I just turned his way into an electronic form.

The best advice I ever got was sleep on it, you nearly always remember something you haven't included the next day. Never send it straight after looking at it bleary eyed for 8hrs straight.

I don't think you ever get entirely confident at it just better, you just do your best and 9 times out of 10 you make a nice bit of money. If your most confident on pen and paper then stick with it, if software helps your confidence in pricing then use it.

Not really helpful, Sorry.

 

[stimpy]

If your making money then you must be doing something right. I luckily worked for my Uncle for 15 years, when he started to get ill he taught me everything he knew about pricing, I spent the last 3 years doing all of it (for 5 men) before he finally retired. He used to use pen and paper (nothing wrong with the tried and tested way). I just turned his way into an electronic form.

The best advice I ever got was sleep on it, you nearly always remember something you haven't included the next day. Never send it straight after looking at it bleary eyed for 8hrs straight.

I don't think you ever get entirely confident at it just better, you just do your best and 9 times out of 10 you make a nice bit of money. If your most confident on pen and paper then stick with it, if software helps your confidence in pricing then use it.

Not really helpful, Sorry.

Thanks Gaz.

And did/do you use labour/time estimating books/software or did you just get a feel for it? Like i said it's just getting more accurate times for larger works so one isn't miles out and has an easy equation to put together. Working out materials cost i don't struggle with - though cable estimating on larger works is pretty laborious to work out.

 

[stimpy]

Oh, and "sleep on it" - agree fully - can be quite intense after a few evenings building a qoute...

 

[gazj82]

I usually have the following on the top of my excel sheet

Qty | Description |Cost Each |Cost All ||Time Hrs each |Time Hrs All |
2 | Masterseal Sockets |50 |100 ||0.5 |1 |

The all columns calculate thereselves

I usualy put in time for every bit of material based on how long I think it takes me to do. MCB 0.5hr RCBO 0.75hr, length of tray 0.5hr the easy lengths balance out the difficult lengths. Pulling in cables probably 0.02hr / meter.

What I do at the end is add 20% to all time, because you don't get 8 hrs work out of an 8 hour day especially on larger jobs. Meetings with main contractor, customer, consultants. Chasing the wholesalers cock ups, a cup of tea somewhere in the day hopefully. We just are not 100% efficent when working however hard we try.

I find the above rule always seems to hold me about right. Obviously I don't apply it to a 4hr domestic job which I know for a fact will take me 4hrs.

 

[stimpy]

Thanks Gaz. Pretty much what i do on paper though i think i often forget to allow for the non productive days! Which are all too easy to be had especially when running other folk or an apprentice..

It can also be tricky making allowances for other folks productivity - though if it looks like they're not pulling there weight they get a kick or the boot.. I knew a chap a good few years back who allowed a man day at only 50% productivity! Funnily enough when the boom times left us he priced himself out of work...

Just been looking at my old Spons book - lot of info in there... I shall have a look at a few other things and look a bit deeper into the actual services of a software. Possibly a decent unit time reference book coupled with me learning/setting up excel would be an easier route...