EV Charger advice for ski lodge

[thedawnbefore]

We have an unusual situation being a British-run ski lodge near Chamonix, France. The chalet is a 1930's, 20-bedroom facility run for around 200 private members that include a growing number of EV owners.

We would like to get three 7 or 22kw EV charging points installed in the car park but believe we'll have to get additional electrical capacity added to the chalet to allow for this. We have a local electrician, but they have limited experience with EV chargers and processes for upgrading the supply. There is no three-phase to the chalet that I'm aware of.

I am not a qualified electrician (only a humble IT networking engineer!) - nevertheless, my thinking is that we'd request a dedicated, independent supply to the car park (in a weatherproof enclosure etc.) which can then support the charging infrastructure. But as mentioned, we and our electrician have little idea where to start.

I'd appreciate any experience or recommendations on where to start here - either in France or what the equivalent process would look like in the UK.

I have been looking at Wallbox or EO chargers due to the central software management and compatibility in EU but would probably have an independent, local electrician do the install once the supply is in place.

I've included photo of our switchboard if this provides any further context!

Thanks in advance.

 

[Julie.]

We have an unusual situation being a British-run ski lodge near Chamonix, France. The chalet is a 1930's, 20-bedroom facility run for around 200 private members that include a growing number of EV owners.

We would like to get three 7 or 22kw EV charging points installed in the car park but believe we'll have to get additional electrical capacity added to the chalet to allow for this. We have a local electrician, but they have limited experience with EV chargers and processes for upgrading the supply. There is no three-phase to the chalet that I'm aware of.

I am not a qualified electrician (only a humble IT networking engineer!) - nevertheless, my thinking is that we'd request a dedicated, independent supply to the car park (in a weatherproof enclosure etc.) which can then support the charging infrastructure. But as mentioned, we and our electrician have little idea where to start.

I'd appreciate any experience or recommendations on where to start here - either in France or what the equivalent process would look like in the UK.

I have been looking at Wallbox or EO chargers due to the central software management and compatibility in EU but would probably have an independent, local electrician do the install once the supply is in place.

I've included photo of our switchboard if this provides any further context!

Thanks in advance.

Can't really tell from the photo, there looks like space, but an electrician will need to check behind the covers to confirm.

Couple of points, a 7kW EVCP is 32A single phase, a 22kW is 32A as well but is three phase, so if you want 22kW you must have a three phase supply (that board in the photo is three phase btw).

If you are looking for three EVCP on the same supply, there is realistically no diversity - in effect that will always be 3x32A (96A).

So if you want three, three phase EVCPs off that board, both the board and the supply must have a spare 100A or so in capacity - I think that's unlikely.

However if you have three single phase EVCPs at 32A each, you can spread them across the three phases, this means you are only looking for a spare 32A capacity per phase on that board/supply, this may be realistic.

So, you will need your electrician to audit the loads on your system, they can then see if, for example the supply is three phase 200A and the load per phase is 150A then you would have 50A available.

In this case, you could use the existing supply and feed three single phase 32A (7kW) EVCPs, no upgrade needed just the installation and paperwork.

But, if you have three phase 100A supply and your load is already 80A then you would have to upgrade.

In this case it becomes a cost analysis - if the cost is the same, upgrade the supply with an additional 100A capacity and fit three three phase EVCPs, if there is a price break below this, just increasing the supply capacity by 20-40A or whatever is necessary and stick with the single phase versions may save a high cost of supply upgrade.

EDIT
FYI
Even though the EVCP is 7 or 22kW the actual charge rate is governed by the vehicle's internal charger, so many vehicles are limited to something like 7kW irrespective of whether a 7kW or 22kW EVCP is fitted.

If you end up requesting a supply upgrade, it may be the case that the supplier recommends a second supply, in this case you may consider one or two rapid chargers (50kW, 75kW....) rather than three slow EVCPs your customers may appreciate the ability to have a rapid charge

 

[thedawnbefore]

Can't really tell from the photo, there looks like space, but an electrician will need to check behind the covers to confirm.

Couple of points, a 7kW EVCP is 32A single phase, a 22kW is 32A as well but is three phase, so if you want 22kW you must have a three phase supply (that board in the photo is three phase btw).

If you are looking for three EVCP on the same supply, there is realistically no diversity - in effect that will always be 3x32A (96A).

So if you want three, three phase EVCPs off that board, both the board and the supply must have a spare 100A or so in capacity - I think that's unlikely.

However if you have three single phase EVCPs at 32A each, you can spread them across the three phases, this means you are only looking for a spare 32A capacity per phase on that board/supply, this may be realistic.

So, you will need your electrician to audit the loads on your system, they can then see if, for example the supply is three phase 200A and the load per phase is 150A then you would have 50A available.

In this case, you could use the existing supply and feed three single phase 32A (7kW) EVCPs, no upgrade needed just the installation and paperwork.

But, if you have three phase 100A supply and your load is already 80A then you would have to upgrade.

In this case it becomes a cost analysis - if the cost is the same, upgrade the supply with an additional 100A capacity and fit three three phase EVCPs, if there is a price break below this, just increasing the supply capacity by 20-40A or whatever is necessary and stick with the single phase versions may save a high cost of supply upgrade.

EDIT
FYI
Even though the EVCP is 7 or 22kW the actual charge rate is governed by the vehicle's internal charger, so many vehicles are limited to something like 7kW irrespective of whether a 7kW or 22kW EVCP is fitted.

If you end up requesting a supply upgrade, it may be the case that the supplier recommends a second supply, in this case you may consider one or two rapid chargers (50kW, 75kW....) rather than three slow EVCPs your customers may appreciate the ability to have a rapid charge

Huge help, thank you. Nice surprise to
Learn we have three phase after all. We have local electrician coming next week to assess capacity and your suggestion might at least provide a nice interim solution to last a few years before we upgrade supply. Thanks again.

 

[Vortigern]

It might be sage to discuss a solution with the EV charger manufacturer. Maybe they could do an onsite survey and recommend a product.

 

[UNG]

A lot depends on your actual per vehicle charging requirements using "Dynamic Load Management" could allow a number of charge points to be installed but depending how many are in use this would vary the charge capacity available at each charge point based on the total load and the supply capacity

I recently attended an EV charge point training day at Garo in Birmingham and it was quite interesting that the charging characteristics for EV's vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model and many will not utilise all 3 phases on 3 phase chargepoint and only charge from the L1 connected phase so in a multiple 3 phase chargepoint installation it is recommended to rotate the connected phases to give a more balanced loading when the connected EV's are only charging from L1
also a 22Kw chargepoint may not be fully utilised as a large number of EV's max out at 11Kw and so a 22Kw chargepoint will incur extra expense when it is rarely used to it's maximum capacity
With regard to "DLM" an example used on the day was a 63A 3 phase supply supplying 10 11Kw charge points and demonstrated how as more vehicles with different charging characteristics are connected the charge points in use will adapt the available output to accomodate the connected load and remain within the supply capacity

 

[thedawnbefore]

A lot depends on your actual per vehicle charging requirements using "Dynamic Load Management" could allow a number of charge points to be installed but depending how many are in use this would vary the charge capacity available at each charge point based on the total load and the supply capacity

I recently attended an EV charge point training day at Garo in Birmingham and it was quite interesting that the charging characteristics for EV's vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model and many will not utilise all 3 phases on 3 phase chargepoint and only charge from the L1 connected phase so in a multiple 3 phase chargepoint installation it is recommended to rotate the connected phases to give a more balanced loading when the connected EV's are only charging from L1
also a 22Kw chargepoint may not be fully utilised as a large number of EV's max out at 11Kw and so a 22Kw chargepoint will incur extra expense when it is rarely used to it's maximum capacity
With regard to "DLM" an example used on the day was a 63A 3 phase supply supplying 10 11Kw charge points and demonstrated how as more vehicles with different charging characteristics are connected the charge points in use will adapt the available output to accomodate the connected load and remain within the supply capacity

That is so helpful, thank you. I had not appreciated the significance of DLM. x10 11kw chargers on 63A is incredible. I don't think the charging power needs to be more than 7-11kw anyway as our preference would be to have a greater number of slower overnight chargers vs. a couple of expensive faster chargers.

So if I understand correctly, if we found a spare 32A across the 3 phases, DLM could potentially support between 2-4 11kw chargers?

I am looking at the Wallbox Copper SB which suggests DLM is supported and would allow for the swipe card-based billing that our committee are insisting on.

Wallbox Copper | Cutting edge charger

The Wallbox Copper SB charger combines cutting edge technology and design with the functionality you need. Learn more!

wallbox.com

 

[UNG]

That is so helpful, thank you. I had not appreciated the significance of DLM. x10 11kw chargers on 63A is incredible. I don't think the charging power needs to be more than 7-11kw anyway as our preference would be to have a greater number of slower overnight chargers vs. a couple of expensive faster chargers.

It would make sense and vehicles could also be charged during the day as I would assume the whole reason for being there would be to be on the slopes during daylight hours

So if I understand correctly, if we found a spare 32A across the 3 phases, DLM could potentially support between 2-4 11kw chargers?

A 32A 3 phase supply would support 7Kw single phase or for vehicles with a 3 phase charger 22Kw
If you had 3 vehicles equiped with single phase chargers if the connected phases are rotated at the chargpoint mains connections they could all charge at 7Kw assuming each vehicle can accept a 7Kw charge
With 4 chargepoints if you have 4 vehicles all with single phase charging capabilities with DLM 2 vehicles would be on the same phase so would charge at a reduced rate depending on how DLM priority was set up

I am looking at the Wallbox Copper SB which suggests DLM is supported and would allow for the swipe card-based billing that our committee are insisting on.

Looks like a reasonable option looking at the spec I assume "Dynamic Power Sharing" is their load management facility

Wallbox Copper | Cutting edge charger

The Wallbox Copper SB charger combines cutting edge technology and design with the functionality you need. Learn more!

wallbox.com

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I would go for zappis or easee units as they allow load balancing and the zappi in particualr can group the chargers to gether s o that they do not exceed a combiend max load setting
if you want back of software then sevadis could be worth a look