EV chargers installed direct to meter box - is it really wrong?

[Deuce]

On another forum for general EV chat this question comes up all the time. It's very common to install a charger taking the supply direct from the meter box via a secondary box and suitable protection installed within the meter box.

Reasons to do this appear quite sensible:

1) Often far easier, cheaper and practical than routing a new circuit back from the CU
2) There is no safety issue
3) There is space for the hardware in the box

Yet for everyone that makes the above arguments, there is someone else that tut tuts and points to rules and who 'owns' that space and how the DNO could force the removal of any unrelated equipment if needed for them to upgrade/maintain the meter etc.

But has anyone ever heard of such a request being made? Surely the DNO are all aware this practice is now commonplace yet there is no effort to enforce/deter against it.

For the pro installers on here, what's your view?

 

[snowhead]

The DNO / Meter owners are only likely to request removal of "Other" equipment if it's taking up space that they need for their use or is so close it interferes with access.
For example if domestic properties start to get upgrade to 3 phase, cutouts will be bigger and could have issues with existing space.
Or if the next Gen meter is truely Smart, unlike the existing ones and is larger as a result there could be space issues.

Another thought, if there is an issue then as with every other problem someone will come up with a solution, i.e slimline external box to fit adjacent to the current box.

Current boxes are only the depth they are because at the time they came into use the original meters were quite deep.
Todays meter are relatively slim so the box could be redesigned to allow items to be stacked.

Also if the "millions" of consumer unit fires, that caused the upgrade / reversion to metal units continue then consumer units may be evicted from inside properties and cause a need for a far larger box to contain everything.

 

[Deuce]

The DNO / Meter owners are only likely to request removal of "Other" equipment if it's taking up space that they need for their use or is so close it interferes with access.
For example if domestic properties start to get upgrade to 3 phase, cutouts will be bigger and could have issues with existing space.
Or if the next Gen meter is truely Smart, unlike the existing ones and is larger as a result there could be space issues.

Yes I can imagine there 'could' be circumstances where they request removal.

But the chances of that seem remote, so remote that it's arguably far more sensible to take that small chance than it is to 'do it properly' which could be far more hassle than removing/re-positing the kit in the meter box, if ever requested.

Yet some people seem to have a 'just no' stance on this which is what I'm questioning.

 

[Risteard]

On another forum for general EV chat this question comes up all the time. It's very common to install a charger taking the supply direct from the meter box via a secondary box and suitable protection installed within the meter box.

Reasons to do this appear quite sensible:

1) Often far easier, cheaper and practical than routing a new circuit back from the CU
2) There is no safety issue
3) There is space for the hardware in the box

Yet for everyone that makes the above arguments, there is someone else that tut tuts and points to rules and who 'owns' that space and how the DNO could force the removal of any unrelated equipment if needed for them to upgrade/maintain the meter etc.

But has anyone ever heard of such a request being made? Surely the DNO are all aware this practice is now commonplace yet there is no effort to enforce/deter against it.

For the pro installers on here, what's your view?

My view is that it shouldn't generally be done. Customer equipment is not permitted within a Permali Box. You are likely to be in breach of your supply agreement.

 

[Deuce]

My view is that it shouldn't generally be done. Customer equipment is not permitted within a Permali Box. You are likely to be in breach of your supply agreement.

I would say definitely in breach.

On the other hand, some outdated rules are ignored en-masse for reasons of simplicity/practicality and eventually it's the rules themselves that are updated to accomodate a practice that was not anticipated when the rules were originally formed.

The suppliers have thus far read/maintained hundreds of thousands of meters which will have such equipment installed in the box, yet no attempts that I've heard of to counter the practice.

If the people you're technically in breach with don't mind (the ones selling the extra power the EV will use..) and the wider political will is for as many homes as possible to adopt EV, I'd think those that opt for installation in this way are on pretty safe ground.

I think a redifining of the rules/reasonable enforcement etc is more likely than any pushback against the practice.

 

[Risteard]

I would say definitely in breach.

On the other hand, some outdated rules are ignored en-masse for reasons of simplicity/practicality and eventually it's the rules themselves that are updated to accomodate a practice that was not anticipated when the rules were originally formed.

The suppliers have thus far read/maintained hundreds of thousands of meters which will have such equipment installed in the box, yet no attempts that I've heard of to counter the practice.

If the people you're technically in breach with don't mind (the ones selling the extra power the EV will use..) and the wider political will is for as many homes as possible to adopt EV, I'd think those that opt for installation in this way are on pretty safe ground.

I think a redifining of the rules/reasonable enforcement etc is more likely than any pushback against the practice.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. The trend towards smart metering is making this a real issue, and I would think the chance of pushback is growing all the time. Some DNOs are stricter about it than others. For some they will openly state that it must not be done. I suppose the bigger question is whether these enclosures are actually fit for purpose at all anymore. I'm not so sure that they are.

 

[Skys]

I actually rang northern power before I did an install with a small board inside meter cupboard. They said it was fine and that it didn’t actually belong to them it belongs to the people who own the property

 

[DefyG]

Discovered this on a job last year where EV installer had put their equipment meter box, possibly impeding access to cutout and meter!

 

[Risteard]

I actually rang northern power before I did an install with a small board inside meter cupboard. They said it was fine and that it didn’t actually belong to them it belongs to the people who own the property

It belongs to the property owner - that is true. However your supply agreement stipulates how it may and may not be used.

 

[Skys]

It belongs to the property owner - that is true. However your supply agreement stipulates how it may and may not be used.

They didn’t have a problem with it been used at all. Worked out great for everyone especially with the consumer unit been in the middle of there new build.

 

[davesparks]

For some they will openly state that it must not be done

Who openly states this?

 

[Risteard]

Who openly states this?

I believe NIE do if you ask them.

 

[mainline]

Who openly states this?

The ENA have issued the following statement:


“While the meter cabinet is the customer’s, it is a space designed for the use of electricity industry apparatus only and no allowance is made for additional equipment. For safety reasons, we would not recommend that any internal wiring, including a consumer unit, is installed within the cabinet.”
Energy Networks Association


If a DNO or MOP attends the premises to carry out work on their equipment and insufficient space is available within the meter enclosure, work will not be able to proceed. The customer will need to organise (at their expense) the removal of unrelated equipment to create the space needed for the work to be carried out.


NICEIC strongly recommends that electrical contractors do not install any other equipment within meter enclosures.

Guidance on installing equipment within meter enclosures | NICEIC

The experts at NICEIC provide more detail on the installation of equipment in meter boxes. Electrical equipment associated with the consumer’s electrical installation is increasingly being found withi

professional-electrician.com

 

[littlespark]

It would be the same as older properties with cut out, meter, fusebox all stuffed into a space under the stairs…

If something else has been fitted that obstructs an engineer working on the equipment, they’ll ask for the obstruction to be moved…. Which could be extra equipment, wooden cupboards around the meter or masses of general crap in the same space.

 

[Deuce]

I believe NIE do if you ask them.

That's not really 'openly stating' if you have to ask - because of course, most people simply won't ask..

It would be the same as older properties with cut out, meter, fusebox all stuffed into a space under the stairs…

If something else has been fitted that obstructs an engineer working on the equipment, they’ll ask for the obstruction to be moved…. Which could be extra equipment, wooden cupboards around the meter or masses of general crap in the same space.

Which must happen all the time - if a new metre is to be fitted then obviously space must exist for it, and access to fit it.

Is this a reason not to use the space in the metre cupboard (or anywhere else defined as DNO equipment space)? I'm betting that 9/10 the engineer will simply move whatever is obstructing them without comment (maybe a grumble...). On the odd occasion they choose not to touch anything that isn't of their concern, it's likely not beyond the wits of a lot of home owners to make a small adjustment to the positioning of the EV circuit box. At worst, call a local spark to re-jig things a little.

Or at absolute worse, get a larger metre cupboard installed which is a big faff and some significant expense... But still often less of a faff and expense than routing a circuit from an awkwardly located CU in the house, damaging décor which has to be reinstated etc...

My conclusion is that it's technically black and white 'incorrect' to use the space if that is what the supplier agreement stipulates, baring in mind that a jump to a different supplier could change the terms of that agreement. But, it's also the most sensible, practical and affordable option in many cases - even if things do have to be re-worked down the line to keep the supplier happy.

Normally taking a cheeky shortcut brings with it potential safety issues but in this instance it does not. I think what this really highlights is that the standardisation of minimum size and design of metre cupboards and the rules of access/use need to be updated. I'd also be a fan of CU being installed in the external box moving forwards... although I know there are split opinions on that one.