External halogen light wired directly to hallway light circuit - No isolater / switch

[chris murphy]

Hello All,

I hope that asking this does not annoy too many Members who think that the answer should be obvious to me:

Last night at my next door neighbour`s house who is away on holiday for the next 12 days one of his external halogen PIR controlled lights above the front door came on and stayed on all night until at my suggestion to him I removed the halogen strip lamp this afternoon.

I am guessing that the PIR Timer has malfunctioned and was not turning the light off after the approximate 2 minutes set off time so he is going to replace the light unit.

Here are some details of the way it is wired:

There is no switch to isolate the light which is probably just directly wired to the home`s ground floor hallway lighting circuit - I am guessing that there should be at least a switch for it - should it be a fused switch ?

Having just spoken to my neighbour on the phone about removing the halogen lamp he is sure that to isolate the power to the light he would have to turn off the downstairs lighting circuit at the Consumer Unit.

There is hardly any wiring externally the cable exits the front door frame and after about 200mm enters the light unit connection box.

Perhaps because of the unknown way that permanent power has been connected to this light I am guessing that adding a switch might not be easy without cutting holes into the ceiling etc. and having to alter the way that the above ceiling wiring to the existing light has been done ?

Sorry again if this message / thread irritates some Members - I am trying to find out what is the correct method of installation to let my friend and neighbour know for replacing the outside halogen light.

Chris

 

[littlespark]

Most floodlights have been put up as a replacement for an existing light, so I’m surprised there’s no switch.

I have seen ones just plugged into a bedroom socket, or through a switched fuse spur next to a bedroom socket.

If the neighbour put it in himself, he will know if it has a switch or not.

Can you see the cable route internally at all?
If it goes out the door frame, it might be hidden by architrave around the front door, and with a bit of luck goes to a switch with a live and neutral at it… maybe it’s possible to add another gang to that switch?


Ps, I hope you don’t mind, but I’ve edited the title of the thread to remove the upper case lettering.

 

[James]

There is generally no requirement to have any sort of switch or isolator connected to an outside light.
most people would like an outside light that is on a sensor to be permanently energised so it cant be accidentally switched off.

I would think the best thing to do would be to replace the halogen PIR fitting with a more modern LED PIR model and not worry about adding any switch to it.

 

[chris murphy]

Most floodlights have been put up as a replacement for an existing light, so I’m surprised there’s no switch.

I have seen ones just plugged into a bedroom socket, or through a switched fuse spur next to a bedroom socket.

If the neighbour put it in himself, he will know if it has a switch or not.

Can you see the cable route internally at all?
If it goes out the door frame, it might be hidden by architrave around the front door, and with a bit of luck goes to a switch with a live and neutral at it… maybe it’s possible to add another gang to that switch?


Ps, I hope you don’t mind, but I’ve edited the title of the thread to remove the upper case lettering.

Hello littlespark,

Thanks for your message.

The front door frame where the cable goes through is a frame where there is a glass panel above the actual door so the frame goes from the hallway floor up to the ceiling.

The cable for the halogen light goes from the light through the top corner of the frame at an angle and into the hallway ceiling - there is definitely now cable exposed inside the frame and as I mentioned there is definitely no switch to turn power on and off to the light.

My neighbour did not install the outside light he said that it was done by an Electrician about 18 years ago.

Not having a switch has never been an issue for my friend and neighbour because he just wanted the light to come on when anyone approached the front door and he told me that the halogen strip lamp has only been replaced once in 18 years and that was during the daytime when the daylight sensor was preventing the light from being turned on by the movement sensor.

As I mentioned apart from telling him that I advise that he employs an Electrician I would like to be able to tell him how it should be wired to meet the regulations and the recommended installation guidelines.

Chris

P.S: Thanks for editing the thread title - "Sorry" - typing titles in capital letters in every situation is an almost lifetime habit of mine - I have been doing it for at least 50 years - I will try to remember to not use all capital letters when I post my next thread on the Forum.

 

[chris murphy]

There is generally no requirement to have any sort of switch or isolator connected to an outside light.
most people would like an outside light that is on a sensor to be permanently energised so it cant be accidentally switched off.

I would think the best thing to do would be to replace the halogen PIR fitting with a more modern LED PIR model and not worry about adding any switch to it.

Hello James,

Thanks for your message.

The points you described are good news for my neighbour because as you mentioned he will just be able to connect the new Halogen Floodlight PIR operated light to the existing cable - obviously ensuring that the power to the existing light is definitely off before disconnecting that light unit to replace it.

I had said to my neighbour that although I felt that the outside light should have a switch that - I would check with the Professionals - as I am doing on here.

I did wonder if as the outside light is wired to the home`s downstair`s lighting circuit - as you stated there might be no requirement for a switch - the outside light just being another light on that circuit.

However it seemed to me that if a halogen strip lamp had to be replaced when it was dark and the daylight sensor had turned on the power to the PIR movement sensor people should be able to physically turn off the power to the light when replacing the halogen lamp.

Thanks again for the good news for my friend and neighbour.

Chris

 

[brianmoooore]

There is a slight possibility that there's nothing wrong with the existing fitting. Some fittings are designed with a function that allows them to be switched permanently on by switching them off and back on almost immediately.
This would normally be done by the wall mounted switch which this fitting does not have, but a momentary power cut can have the same effect.

 

[mainline]

I always try and fit a switched fcu quite high up so that the light can be isolated which can also be a god send in the case of a fault and losing your lighting circuit especially in the night.
There is also the possibility that they would want the light to remain on for the duration of the night, most have the on /off within a few seconds mode which would be a pain to do without some form of local isolation.

 

[chris murphy]

There is a slight possibility that there's nothing wrong with the existing fitting. Some fittings are designed with a function that allows them to be switched permanently on by switching them off and back on almost immediately.
This would normally be done by the wall mounted switch which this fitting does not have, but a momentary power cut can have the same effect.

Hello Brianmoooore,

Thanks for yor reply - Sorry that I did not see your message until today - the Forum replies notification emails about your reply and Member mainline`s went into my Spam folder which I don`t check often enough.

Your suggestion [and Member mainline`s] makes perfect sense and after reading what you wrote I remembered having to do the quick Off / On switch operation on one of these Halogen PIR operated Floodlights a few years ago on a house where I was working to put it to On until later switching it off for a few seconds then on again to put the light back onto the PIR operation mode.

I will mention this to my neighbour and see if he wants to try isolating the ground floor lighting circuit - fitting a new Halogen strip lamp - turning the power back on - hoping that the floodlight does not illuminate [daylight sensor operating] until the PIR is test triggered when darkness arrives.

I may not be able to update this thread with the result for quite a few days because he will be working during the daytime for about the next 10 days - hopefully after that we can check this possibility out.

Thanks again to you and Member mainline.

Chris.