Failed PIR on an old church

[Knobhead]

Sacrity to be correct.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

It's the RC version of the Vestry


Whoever did this PIR appears to exude inexperience IMO my only other thought is his scheme is rewire the socket ring in PVC/PVC or Hi Tuf cable and weigh the 1.5 Pyro in
Why is it there seems to be a thing with some people that if an installation isn't up to the latest regs then it's unsafe

As a result of mediocrity & ineptitude.

 

[Mr.Si]

Or, he's not done much with MICC / old churches before and is therefore un-familiar with such situations.

In terms of "knowing" the older regs and stuff, that has to obviously come with years on the job and experiencing different situations as newer courses probably don't teach the older regs.

So if you aren't familiar, ask those who might (forums are geat for that (and risk getting flamed for not knowing)).

 

[SPARTYKUS]

True Mr Si, but this person probably didn't ask advice and just made it up.

Or if he asked advice the advice given was incorrect. Maybe.

 

[UNG]

Or, he's not done much with MICC / old churches before and is therefore un-familiar with such situations.

In terms of "knowing" the older regs and stuff, that has to obviously come with years on the job and experiencing different situations as newer courses probably don't teach the older regs.

So if you aren't familiar, ask those who might (forums are geat for that (and risk getting flamed for not knowing)).

The trouble is the teaching these days seems to be old is bad new is good.

And if it don't comply with current regs then it is wrong and needs replacing

No mention is made these days that at the time of installation it complied with XX edition of the regs it 17th or nothing

Beginning to wonder will someone code a 17th edition installation because it doesn't comply with amendment 1

 

[SafetyFirst]

Hey guy's, first time i could get on this as i been working away all week.

I'm going to type more info, i made a mistake with one of the grade 1's so ignore the start of the thread....bare with me, i did ask how could i scan this in for easiness nevermind.

I'll do it the old fashioned way.

 

[netblindpaul]

The point i was making, if he needs to change these existing 2.5mm, then he might as well change them to 10mm. Who knows what the next generation of bonding regulations might be...lol!! And if it is a TT installation, it could always be PME'd at a future date....

PLUS, the bigger the bond the lower the Z values, so the better surely.

 

[SafetyFirst]

DB 1 - Power DB:-

Schedule:

cct 1: (Alter radial sockets) Wired in MICC 1.5mm live & cpc, 2 points served, B32A fuse.
cct 3: (Organ supply) Wired in PVC cables in metallic trunking, 2.5mm lives, 1.5mm cpc, B32A fuse.
cct 5: (Heating controls) Wired with mixture of PVC and MICC cables, 1.5mm live & cpc, 9 points served, B20A fuse.


Code 1's;

1) cct 1: The 1.5mm MICC cable is protected by a 32A breaker. The protective device overrated for cable. Recommend downgrading to current regulations. Protective device is a 'square D' QOE type.

2) cct 3: Overrated breaker same as cct 1.

3) cct 5: Overrated breaker for 1.5mm pvc cable, recommend downgrading.

 

[SafetyFirst]

Thats all the grade 1's circuit wise, the other 2 are to do with earthing. 1 being the earth bonding conductors need renewing in 10mm and 2 the lightning conductor needs repairing and as has been mentioned here already that shouldn't even be graded on the PIR??

 

[netblindpaul]

What is the CCC of the 1.5MI?
Don't have a regs book here, more to the point really what was it when the cable was installed?
That could be the difference between an "old" code 2 & 4.

 

[Richard Burns]

DB 1 - Power DB:-


Schedule:


cct 1: (Altar radial sockets) Wired in MICC 1.5mm live & cpc (14th Ed imp 1.29/1.94 21A/26A 1.5mm 25A), 2 points served, B32A fuse.
cct 3: (Organ supply) Wired in PVC cables in metallic trunking, 2.5mm lives, 1.5mm cpc (23A), B32A fuse.
cct 5: (Heating controls) Wired with mixture of PVC (19.5A) and MICC (25A)cables, 1.5mm live & cpc, 9 points served, B20A fuse.

CCCs are assuming ref method C, if not otherwise specified.
So cct1 2 points served? max 26A limited load?
Generally code 2 drop breaker to 20A
Cct2 assuming radial Code 2 drop breaker to 20A, what is the current draw from the organ, if less than 23A cable is protected and does not need overcurrent protection.
Cct 5 was OK with the original MICC but the introduction of PVC means should be 16A breaker code 2.

 

[SafetyFirst]

DB 1 - Power DB:-


Schedule:


cct 1: (Altar radial sockets) Wired in MICC 1.5mm live & cpc (14th Ed imp 1.29/1.94 21A/26A 1.5mm 25A), 2 points served, B32A fuse.
cct 3: (Organ supply) Wired in PVC cables in metallic trunking, 2.5mm lives, 1.5mm cpc (23A), B32A fuse.
cct 5: (Heating controls) Wired with mixture of PVC (19.5A) and MICC (25A)cables, 1.5mm live & cpc, 9 points served, B20A fuse.

CCCs are assuming ref method C, if not otherwise specified.
So cct1 2 points served? max 26A limited load?
Generally code 2 drop breaker to 20A
Cct2 assuming radial Code 2 drop breaker to 20A, what is the current draw from the organ, if less than 23A cable is protected and does not need overcurrent protection.
Cct 5 was OK with the original MICC but the introduction of PVC means should be 16A breaker code 2.

thanks Richard, i'm yet to check the installation first hand, here are the reference methods;

cct's 1 and 5 are C, cct 3 is ref method B.

 

[Richard Burns]

thanks Richard, i'm yet to check the installation first hand, here are the reference methods;

cct's 1 and 5 are C, cct 3 is ref method B.

That's as I thought.

 

[SafetyFirst]

DB 1 - Power DB:-

CCCs are assuming ref method C, if not otherwise specified.
So cct1 2 points served? max 26A limited load?
Generally code 2 drop breaker to 20A
Cct2 assuming radial Code 2 drop breaker to 20A, what is the current draw from the organ, (if less than 23A cable is protected and does not need overcurrent protection.) - I don't understand this bit please expand.
Cct 5 was OK with the original MICC but the introduction of PVC means should be 16A breaker code 2.

So when i have a look at job tomorrow barring no suprises as per schedule i ought to recommend the preist gets fuses changed to 20A for cct 1, 20A for cct 3 and 16A for cct 5? To get 10mm bondong sorted. All these things i could possibly do myself for him.

What is your advice on the lightning conductor with regards to, is it part of the grading on a PIR? Some have said not and that is a seperate issue/test. A specialist contractor to repair, test and certify all in one?

Many thanks.

 

[Richard Burns]

Obviously for both us and you at a distance we cannot truly tell what the situation is.
That said, changing the fuses (thought they were breakers) to the above values would be protecting the cables appropriately. You would need to review the actual circuits to ensure that there are no other problems, and in an earlier post (which we were to disregard) there was a ring circuit which would have complied so just check you are not unnecessarily reducing the breakers.
Upgrade the bonding to suitable levels.

For the lightning protection, I cannot really give suitable advice as I do not know, but a specialist would probably be a better bet than attempting something you do not know about.