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Yes, biggest install fail I come across even now - plastic clips!!!!!!!!!!!!

That, and plastic cable ties when the cable isn't supported by the metal tray it is tie wrapped to!!!!

It's always fun trying to explain to customers that their installation doesn't meet the required standard, because of a bit of plastic.
 
7,000,000 Sinteso heads sold last year worldwide (but then,statistics are wonderful things!).

That's a few. Statistically, we've purchased around 6500 heads this year so far, and I can honestly say I don't think one of them was a Sinteso.......

Not sure what the System Sensor output was - very probably not 7 million though!

It's a fair claim in my book! And an indication of how successful a closed licence system can be!
 
Yes, biggest install fail I come across even now - plastic clips!!!!!!!!!!!!

That, and plastic cable ties when the cable isn't supported by the metal tray it is tie wrapped to!!!!

It's always fun trying to explain to customers that their installation doesn't meet the required standard, because of a bit of plastic.
..and just to show that SP203 is a paper making excercise - seen a site this time last year (which was a new install in a school) that had been installed by the companys preferred installer and commissioned by the company themselves which had been installed completely in plastic conduit and saddles throughout (up and along walls,across ceilings etc.).Lovely neat job right enough but goes to show that you can't be even sure with an approved company.
 
That's a few. Statistically, we've purchased around 6500 heads this year so far, and I can honestly say I don't think one of them was a Sinteso.......

Not sure what the System Sensor output was - very probably not 7 million though!

It's a fair claim in my book! And an indication of how successful a closed licence system can be!
Outside of the UK in Europe every other public bulding has a Siemens system installed (Germany it is nearing 100%)....sorry,this has turned into a marketing thread!!
The issue is that in the UK closed protocol systems have been seen as being returning revenue schemes,which is of course a part of it but that shouldn't be the only thing and a sole reason to flleece customers (past and present).We are trying to get away from this mentality as we recognise the bad reputation it gives and prefer to show that our systems have unique features and are backward compatible.
 
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..and just to show that SP203 is a paper making excercise - seen a site this time last year (which was a new install in a school) that had been installed by the companys preferred installer and commissioned by the company themselves which had been installed completely in plastic conduit and saddles throughout (up and along walls,across ceilings etc.).Lovely neat job right enough but goes to show that you can't be even sure with an approved company.

And they wonder why some of us still say MICC should have stayed.

Sad thing is that most of them hide behind the fact that the cable is fire rated, completely oblivious to the fact that when the plastic "containment" fails pretty fast, that fire rated cable is going to become a pretty thorough trip hazard, or death noose.

And that's before you assume that the additional weight of the cable having to support itself may well disconnect it from the installation.

As for SP203...........

paper making exercise is probably the politest way of putting it......
 
So essentially then the gist so far is that calling ones self a 'specialist' in a given area, is a licence to print money and people will either pay it or risk death because no-one else is capable of carrying out the job other than the 'specialist'???
 
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To be honest I would prefer a specialist take the responsibility and the fall if it went terribly wrong. They are charging for the risk as well as their time and at the end of the day it's the commercial customer footing the bill. Personal opinion
 
So essentially then the gist so far is that calling ones self a 'specialist' in a given area, is a licence to print money and people will either pay it or risk death because no-one else is capable of carrying out the job other than the 'specialist'???
As I said,a specialist company isn't just a "closed protocol" company - it's a company that specializes and understands what fire alarms are about,and the risk involved in getting any part of it wrong.
It isn't a licence therefore to print money but generally the specialist company will have actually invested in training their employees properly,rather than just allowing the new start to pick it up from the old guy who remembers the days when you could wire the lot in T&E (actually,if it's an L1 addressable system with isolators on each device there's no reason why (aside from it being in the standard of course!) why you can't wire it in 0.7mm belden cable!).
 
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To be honest I would prefer a specialist take the responsibility and the fall if it went terribly wrong. They are charging for the risk as well as their time and at the end of the day it's the commercial customer footing the bill. Personal opinion


Please read the thread fully as you're missing the point....I already stated that I use a company for supply and commision on a regular basis.

The problem I have is with the closed system specialist equipment manufacturers and their 'pay us or die' ethic who charge way over the top for adding devices to a system that has been disigned and installed by someone else so even if there was a problem that went to court they would stand from under with the "we didn't design or install your honour" stand.

So by paying their extortionate fee they havn't taken the resposibility off you at all.
 
So essentially then the gist so far is that calling ones self a 'specialist' in a given area, is a licence to print money and people will either pay it or risk death because no-one else is capable of carrying out the job other than the 'specialist'???

Lenny - methinks you might be taking it a bit on the general side, comparing your lemon to an apple........

That's not the gist at all -and certainly not the one intended.

Anyone can call themselves a "specialist" in any field they choose. To actually be one is a different matter.

An analogy might be that a policeman does so many years as a "general" policeman, learning the common parts of that job, and has to do that BEFORE he can become say a drugs officer, or a traffic officer, firearms, whatever.

And so it is with fire as a specialism.

There are thousands of guys out there calling themselves fire alarm engineers. Most of them are nothing of the sort.

To get to a level of "commissioning" (or designing), typically, you need to have several years active experience of fire alarm engineering, and you need to demonstrate also that you are fully conversant with not just BS 5839 and EN54, but also related fire legislation - the RRO, HASAW, EAWR, BS9999, COSHH, and many more. Until 2007, we had to be familiar with potentially over 120 different pieces of legislation affecting fire safety. The legislation that replaced most of those isn't much better - as in the main it simply passes responsibility to the owner of the premises in question. In turn, that responsibility is passed to the "specialists" coming in claiming to know how to repudiate that risk.

There's a big difference between being a specialist in the area of fire detection or safety, as against say an AV specialist.

Also, what about IT support? Rates of £200 an hour for software engineers are common - and the protocol argument stands perfectly there too, the moment you choose to have a bespoke bulletin board, over an off the shelf one.

When it comes right down to it, almost anyone is capable of carrying out even specialist fire work - with the right knowledge and tools.

Your notion sort of falls on its head a little every time you moan about a DIY'er getting it wrong, and end up having to put right several incorrectly wired plate switches, or sort out an intermediate switch the DIY'er couldn't get his head around, as well as having borrowed neutrals in.

The point, in your case - the £360 - you were paying for the use of the licenced protocol as well as the guy's time - as I said, there's another layer in that charging over and above using open licence kit - but that said, call Apollo out to a system that isn't doing what you think it should - they'll charge a similar level for their engineers (who, incidentally mostly have that extra layer of knowledge and training too, mostly because Apollo would not want the bad press associated with their protocol, should the fire system fail).

It isn't about calling yourself "specialist" and hiking the cost up - theres far more to it than that.
 
Hope this doesn`t become sparks vs fire. Personally as stated we work together, yes we do advised the electricians and state standards. But in the end we all get there. Again my view only, is I would not hold an electrical contractor down to a closed system, unless we were supporting it. As Bill stated his experience is his electrical contractors do a first class job compared to some said Fire alarm installers. Buzard, you are well ofay to your systems, and can support them which is more to the point. Lenny if you are being held to paticular closed system may be idea to state like other electrical contractor that you wish a open system.
 
Lenny if you are being held to paticular closed system may be idea to state like other electrical contractor that you wish a open system.


I've already been told that to do this would be unwise for future work that may may or may not come my way!!!

I apologise if any of this has come across the wrong way but essentially I'm being held to ransom by a particular company and there genuinely isn't anything I can do about it.
 
Lenny Surely they would make you aware of any non compliance issues with your existing system, as they are connecting into it they are responsible for the commissioning and installation of their own equipment and so shouldn't be connecting something into a system that is deemed unsuitable before installation, if they do then the responsibility rests with them for commissioning part of a system that was non compliant to start with. So if your open system is fully compliant already and their part of the system fails, in court it's down to them.
 
Lenny no need to appologise, this is forum not a court of law. on many of your contractors who is requesting the closed system? as I cannot understand why the job cant be seen through till the end. As buzard uses a closed system, his company would be there from design till end. Which is the same ussual proceedure for any open system
 

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