Fit rate slashes | Page 4 | on ElectriciansForums
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Discuss Fit rate slashes in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Here is a complete opposite veiw about the German investment and echoes some of my own discomfort with subsidising the better off by the less well off with fits


Here is a link to the whole article,its a bit long drawn out,but the German experiment started years before our own, is also pasted below for a more concise summary
Solar PV has failed in Germany and it will fail in the UK | George Monbiot | Environment | guardian.co.uk


When the German programme began in 2000, it offered index-linked payments of 51 euro cents for every KWh of electricity produced by solar PV. These were guaranteed for 20 years. This is similar to the UK's initial subsidy, of 41p. As in the UK, the solar subsidy was, and remains, massively greater than the payments for other forms of renewable technology.
The real net cost of the solar PV installed in Germany between 2000 and 2008 was €35bn. The paper estimates a further real cost of €18bn in 2009 and 2010: a total of €53bn in ten years. These investments make wonderful sense for the lucky householders who could afford to install the panels, as lucrative returns are guaranteed by taxing the rest of Germany's electricity users. But what has this astonishing spending achieved? By 2008 solar PV was producing a grand total of 0.6% of Germany's electricity. 0.6% for €35bn. Hands up all those who think this is a good investment.
After years of these incredible payments, and the innovation and cost reductions they were supposed to stimulate, the paper estimates that saving one tonne of carbon dioxide through solar PV in Germany still costs €716. The International Energy Agency has produced an even higher estimate: €1000 per tonne. There are dozens of ways in which you can save carbon for 100th of the cost of solar PV at high latitudes.
The Ruhr University paper comes out against using feed-in tariffs to stimulate wind power as well, but in this case it shows that large-scale wind power in Germany is likely to become cheaper than conventional power by 2022, at which point subsidies will become redundant. It makes no such prediction for solar PV. It reinforces the point I made in my first sally: while Germany, like the UK, belongs to the European emissions trading scheme, any carbon savings made by feed-in tariffs merely allow polluting industries to raise their emissions. The net saving is zero.
 
so would solar pay for its self without fit

At the moment? No. If it did we wouldnt need it. Ridiculous? Maybe, but its not like its a wierd idea that has suddenly come about in the last decade or something that is specific to new technologies.

Name an industry and it will probably have some sort of subsidy or, at the very least had one in the past. Subsidies may be a bit more associated with the energy game at the moment- and this includes pretty much all of it- renewables, coal, oil, gas and nuclear (it seems that its easier to accept if its a multi national company benefiting rather than middle class families)
Pharmaceutical, agricultural, arms, finance, communications, retail...... They'll all be getting a piece of the pie.
 
Subsidising an industry (such as coal in the past)
where the whole of the population paid for the subsidy through taxation and was then rewarded by lower electricity prices as a consequence

It seems entirely different to a subsidy by all the people through taxation to relatively few beneficiaries who have invested in the new technology

For that reason the posted comparable of subsidies in the past to other industries seems not to be the same
 
At the moment? No. If it did we wouldnt need it. Ridiculous? Maybe, but its not like its a wierd idea that has suddenly come about in the last decade or something that is specific to new technologies.

Name an industry and it will probably have some sort of subsidy or, at the very least had one in the past. Subsidies may be a bit more associated with the energy game at the moment- and this includes pretty much all of it- renewables, coal, oil, gas and nuclear (it seems that its easier to accept if its a multi national company benefiting rather than middle class families)
Pharmaceutical, agricultural, arms, finance, communications, retail...... They'll all be getting a piece of the pie.

i appreciate your honest answer ns,ive been reading the solar thread for i while i never quite understood the whole thing,tho a thought to your post about subsidy we had nationalized industries like gas coal electricity which received those,surely theres no difference now apart from the bigger bills,if we can subby solar we can subby our own resources.
 
The subsidisng of an industry does (or should) lead to benefits for the public. This specific subsidy leads (or should do) to the techology in question becoming more affordable to more people and eventually becoming mainstream and self sufficient.
It also, is part of our society switching from high carbon energy to lower. I know its a great big argument we could all have about that but if you accept for the sake of the argument that global warming is real and man-made then switching to renewable energy could be said to benefit us all.

Besides that argument there is a whole discussion about whether the other subsidies to other industries do actually benefit anyone but those responsible for badgering government.
 
Thank you for the links morgan,I have just read them and have been reminded of power subsidies of fuel over a long period and wont take issue with the facts

The difference I see with subsidies that were given for other forms of energy is the original question I posed
Is it morally right that the less well off subsidise the better off

I have read all the posts since and some very good and informative posts they are by many people

They have not in my opinion stated anything that would change my own gut feeling that the system is very flawed

I do not oppose the encouragement of the government to the industry and the public to invest in this industry but it seems that it is being pushed along by profit motive(naturally and expected) but paid for by non participants
 
alarmman you've made the point again. Solar panels could most probably be sold more cheaply and potentially profitably at the moment but we are where we are. But you are correct will solar panels pay for themselves. Once manufactured what maintenance is required for a panel (look at the scientific details).If you decide not to ook at the scientific details you find that the price of panels can only reduce as competition increases. I think a panel in real terms (I dont understand this term well) will become largely reduced. meaning repalcement costs of the panels will be reduced. Also take into account if I had an installation now(I've got three kids and a wife) the panels efficiency can reduce as part of the payback.

I cannot afford it, but even without the FIT, if you can get the correct deals on your panels you can make solar pay
 
Thank you for the links morgan,I have just read them and have been reminded of power subsidies of fuel over a long period and wont take issue with the facts

The difference I see with subsidies that were given for other forms of energy is the original question I posed
Is it morally right that the less well off subsidise the better off

I have read all the posts since and some very good and informative posts they are by many people

They have not in my opinion stated anything that would change my own gut feeling that the system is very flawed

I do not oppose the encouragement of the government to the industry and the public to invest in this industry but it seems that it is being pushed along by profit motive(naturally and expected) but paid for by non participants

I have to agree with you I'm afraid. I just don't see how it could be anyother way though- the profit motive is king. The companies who bought our transport or communication to make them better (again another can of worms) services wouldnt have done so if they didnt get them a fairly big discount and thus make a bucket load of cash. Failing industries or geographical areas in need of rejuvenation wouldnt get help if somebody wasnt getting a piece of the action.
I think its all more "on show" with the FITS and the benefits it aims to bring are a bit more intangible than say, cheaper train tickets, but its still fairly small fry and certainly fairer than us all paying the prince of wales to grow sugar.

On George Monbiot, one of the things he says about the FIT is that the amount of money could be far, far better spent on energy efficiency measures- things that would cost a lot less but would achieve much more in terms of carbon reduction (He's mainly concerned with the environmental aspect of this as well as the ethical one) The smaller, boring things as opposed to shiny expensive stuff. I completely agree with him.The thing is though, much as it might be better otherwise, human nature and the society we have means that it just doenst happen.
 
seems that it is being pushed along by profit motive(naturally and expected) but paid for by non participants

You could generalize about alot of issues like this. I don't watch TV, yet I still have to pay a license fee!!! Paying an extra £3 a year on my electric bill for "rich people" to have solar is ok in my book, everyone has the oppertunity to buy a house and install solar panels.

I also think if you really want something, then you'll find a way to achieve it, be it buying your first house or installing panels on said house.
 
You could generalize about alot of issues like this. I don't watch TV, yet I still have to pay a license fee!!! Paying an extra £3 a year on my electric bill for "rich people" to have solar is ok in my book, everyone has the oppertunity to buy a house and install solar panels.

I also think if you really want something, then you'll find a way to achieve it, be it buying your first house or installing panels on said house.

every line is wrong man...
 
Thank you Andyfm,the solution that "was" and "will be" to all energy related issues

Cheap, fair to all and relatively safe, if we learn from the past and the old technology used
 
How many people have died as a result of the major radiation leaks following the huge explosions at the Fukushima plant? And how many deaths can be directly attributed to the complete melt-down at Chernobyl?

None and 31. The latter number of which were entirely fire and emergency workers who were either not adequately protected, or else were allowed exposure to radiation for far longer than they should have.

How many coal miners and oil and gas-field workers have been killed in the same time. Even in this country?


(Forgive me if the numbers are slightly off - they are based on a documentary on nuclear safety that was on telly a few months back. Even if I'm a little out, I think the point is clear.)
 
The problem is though PV is not a viable option for future energy sources in the UK unless we are going to accept a lifestyle that drastically reduces it's dependencies and how we use our Electricity.

I don't have the figures to hand but I would be amazed if I was wrong, but the highest demand in the UK for electricity I would imagine is in the winter. When we have short cold days and longer colder nights. PV is not going to be very productive during this period and I would be amazed that it would cover 10% of the demand required, even if every house in the UK had it installed.

I agree green energy is vital, but tidal or wind is surely more sensible, winter, summer, spring or Autumn day or night we have the tidal system and surely developing this would be more cost efficient. Wind though not as reliant as tides must surely again be more reliant than PV.

Unfortunately the last government made promise that really we can not keep, not at the moment. The only sensible alternative solution is nuclear power or a derivative of it. We had a major Earthquake in Japan that seriously compromised a nuclear power plant and the outcome was not the doom laden scenario the tree huggers would want us to imagine.

Every source of energy as risks or shortcomings, but some have more advantages than others.

[url]http://www.electriciansforums.net/photovoltaic-solar-panels-green-energy-forum/42517-potential-slash-feed-tariff-fits-what-does-mean-mcs-installers-3.html

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Above is something I posted a week ago and have argued about for over a year on here, just ask MarckC one of our respected members.

I suppose I'am biased as I was part of the subsidized NCB and not only did I loose my job but communities as well, so it is something I feel strong about. The NCB was closed for several reason, not a small part due to Thatcher not going to do a Ted Heath and be brought down by the miners and the advent of cheap Polish coal. As Alarm Man noted there are literally billions of tons of coal under our land, and unfortunately now not viable to get at..................... but in the future who knows.

I have no problem subsidizing an industry if it works ​but PV will not give us electricity when we want it and never will.
 

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