Fixed Ring in Kitchen - Wanted to check my understanding

[shaun1]

As a side note (and nothing to do with the electrical requirements) I recently moved from a kitchen with a fridge freezer to one with an under counter built in fridge, and found it a massive step backwards. There is a lot less space and it's very hard to find things without getting down on hands and knees.

 

[Dave78]

With regards the whole not needing a FCU and just having a 20A DP switch above the worktop. I understand why there's no need to have a fuse as there's one in the plug. I've also been told you can always unplug it if you wanted to switch it off/isolate it. But would much rather have a switch to switch it off if going away for a while.

Personally (and this is just a personal viewpoint) I would rather have a switch and fuse where I can easily access them, and then have the actual appliance hard wired into the circuit (so not just plugged in with the 13A plug under the worktop). So should a fuse need replacing I don't then have to take the built in appliance out just to replace a fuse.

I know one of my friends who has some appliances plugged into hard to reach places, just down rates the fuse on the FCU - for example the fridge is plugged in under the worktop with it's as delievered 13A plug, but there's a 10A fuse in the FCU - logic being that the 10A should let go well before the 13A in the plug and therefore much easier to get to in order to replace.

 

[Dave78]

As a side note (and nothing to do with the electrical requirements) I recently moved from a kitchen with a fridge freezer to one with an under counter built in fridge, and found it a massive step backwards. There is a lot less space and it's very hard to find things without getting down on hands and knees.

We've looked and the under counter fridge is about the same size as our current fridge in the fridge/freezer. I'll let the wife know about the having to find things aspect as it's not something I've thought of. Our main reason for moving to under counter is we can then squeeze in a corner unit (on both floor and wall) giving us lots more storage space, which we can then move things off the worktop and giving us more worktop space in the process, in addition to the corner unit giving us more worktop space.

 

[telectrix]

We've looked and the under counter fridge is about the same size as our current fridge in the fridge/freezer. I'll let the wife know about the having to find things aspect as it's not something I've thought of. Our main reason for moving to under counter is we can then squeeze in a corner unit (on both floor and wall) giving us lots more storage space, which we can then move things off the worktop and giving us more worktop space in the process, in addition to the corner unit giving us more worktop space.

on that basis then, i'd use the under counter fridge and freezer for things like milk, eggs, beer, etc; stuff you want to hand regularly, and retain the fridge freezer in utility room, garage , or similar easily accessible location for main storage.

 

[westward10]

Have I wandered on to another Forum.

 

[Dave78]

Sorry westward10, back on topic now

In terms of under counter sockets/connections with built in appliances. What is the general viewpoint between just plugging the appliance into an unswitched socket, and cutting the plug off (assuming it has one) and wiring it into a flex outlet on the wall?

Obviously the second method need a FCU.

 

[Midwest]

Personally, if possible I would always plug an appliance into a socket outlet, rather than cutting off plug & wired into flex outlet. This allows the appliance to be easily removed for maintenance & cleaning, by the householder (for example).

However, due to some kitchen designs and lengths of appliance leads, this is not possible. So cutting off the plug top, and using a flex outlet is perhaps the only option.

PS I did ask who the kitchen installer was? If it's the likes of Wren or BQ, get your own electrician, don't use theirs. If it's a local company, use their electricians.

 

[telectrix]

Have I wandered on to another Forum.

yup.this is Alice in Blunderland.

 

[Des 56]

I know one of my friends who has some appliances plugged into hard to reach places, just down rates the fuse on the FCU - for example the fridge is plugged in under the worktop with it's as delievered 13A plug, but there's a 10A fuse in the FCU - logic being that the 10A should let go well before the 13A in the plug and therefore much easier to get to in order to replace.

[QUOTE="Dave78, post: 1




Regards a 10 amp fuse in your fcu or plug top
3 and 13 amps are the accepted standards

I believe the Iet and/or the manufacturers had a look at fuses a while back,their conclusion was the time it took to pop fuses in the 1 to 13 amp range was very similar and differences in the times are essentially much the same for all of them
The differences was only enough to justify a 3 amp and 13 amp as being worthwhile ratings as far as any useful difference was concerned

 

[davesparks]

Such switches are not tested for the current carrying capacity of a ring final circuit like BS1363 fuse connection units. How would they be a better option.

The terminals of a 20A switch must logically be suitable for 20A, and 20A is the required ccc of the cable used for the ring circuit. This suggests that perhaps the terminals are good for the current does it not?

 

[stevethesparks]

Just to add, looking at an MK fcu and a MK dp switch, the terminals are identical.

 

[westward10]

The terminals of a 20A switch must logically be suitable for 20A, and 20A is the required ccc of the cable used for the ring circuit. This suggests that perhaps the terminals are good for the current does it not?

I don't disagree but ring final circuits are often unbalanced and whilst this maybe negligible and variable it is not impossible for parts of the circuit to have currents in excess of 20A flowing.

 

[westward10]

Just to add, looking at an MK fcu and a MK dp switch, the terminals are identical.

They may well look the same and probably are. I believe BS1363 tests do not subject the terminals to 30/32A but 20A for a constant period of four hours, whether this is a terminal test or a test which includes all components I am not sure. Whether EN60669-1 switches are subjected to the same tests I do not know. Maybe consulting manufacturers and obtaining written guarantees as to whether they are suitable for direct connection to ring final circuits is a step which should be taken.

 

[davesparks]

I don't disagree but ring final circuits are often unbalanced and whilst this maybe negligible and variable it is not impossible for parts of the circuit to have currents in excess of 20A flowing.

I should add that as an apprentice I was taught that it's wrong, and I never have fitted a 20A switch on a ring. But the logic is there and I don't think I'd comment on it if I came across it in an installation.
Especially considering the average load on a whole domestic installation rarely more than around 20-30A

 

[valleybilly]

Hi Dave with the greatest respect , If u put fcu's above counter tops it will make the look of your kitchen accessory cluttered for want of a better word & will look naff . Dont do it . The chances of fuses going minimal / Going away so switchin them off Why ? / With respect your over thinking the worst case senario . What if the RCD trip when your away ? Do you have Tropical fish ? hint hint . If you have washer /dishwasher on over night stagger the start times man ! . In reality having an evenly distrabuted load on a ring main is not that realistic in any situation .