For our Quantum Physicists amongst us...

[Darkwood]

The problem as I see it,I like this forum,so could I be in two places at one time ? lol

Windows 7 .... split screen option

 

[topquark]

No! no beer for me tonight, its an often asked question in quantum physics but although at first its seems like it going to be a brain-buster it really is a straight forward concept, photon is like any other boson in that its a force carrier (excluding Higgs Boson as this is like a central piece linking quarks, leptons and bosons). The fabric of space time although still an unknown concept is affected by gravity and warped in some way, photons even though massless in the standard model still permiate through space time if the light travels long enough it also has red shift because over the billions of years the universe has expanded stretching space time and thus also stretching the waveform of the photon, this in itself hints that it is effected by anything that would stretch spacetime.

I had been to the pub Yep, seen that proposal and it explains the photon being "bent" towards the singularity. The model used is like a marble rolling on some "cloth" (the space/time) that's been streached down at one point forming a funnel like structure. That doesn't explain why no light comes out of a black hole in any of the explainations I've seen though, any clues from your reading?

 

[Darkwood]

Now TQ you are entering the territory of debate and depending on your following and theories depends on the answer you want to accept. When i say light has no mass this isn't strictly true, what is meant by this is light has no rest mass, but because light has momentum it does in effect have mass imbued to it but we are talking a very small amount, also to consider that light approaches a blackhole at the speed of light and crosses the event horizon it could be argued that with it momentum it goes into an orbit as such, other ideas to look at are the laws of physics break down near the centre of a black hole so we cant truely use what we know to predict behavour..... another angle is light takes several minutes to reach earth from the suns surface but aprox 170 000 years to get from the centre to the surface of the sun due to its density so consider a blackholes density and in effect it could stop light, i assume atoms etc have a upper energy limit too before they are torn into their constituant parts this would also hinder if not stop light in its tracks. Consider a black object with little or no reflection in your hand shine a torch on one side, the photons wont be seen on the other side nor really reflected... energy of the photon is absorbed and turned into heat and radiation of differing wavelengths and 10yrs ago it was found that black holes do emit large amounts radiation on a axis to the spin. Light is electro-magnetic radiation so in a nutshell the radiation spewing out of blackholes is too just not in the visible spectrum we see.

I not saying if any which idea is correct but these are amongst many out there and sometime you just have to live with the fact we cant always give a 100% answer.

 

[topquark]

Time dilation effect from the black hole slowing time down? IE So if we were able to wait long enough then light might eventually emerge. Or, maybe the frequency has changed so it's no longer visible EM.

This is wrapped up in the which model does light have question ... particle versus wave, the momentum would be attributable to the photon as a particle (as opposed to a wave "rippling" outward). Not sure I can get my head around a wave model when it approaches a black hole ... then some of it would "go in" and some not.

I've seen an article recently on entangled photons being used for photo voltaic effects. More than one electron out per photon in!

 

[Darkwood]

Quantum Physics Forum have a peruse at this, but be warned this is a forum tight on rules and really need a understanding to join in the debate as alot of them have degree's etc in said subject even some of the cern' crown are on here but it still makes good reading for someone on the same wavelength (or is it a particle?)

 

[topquark]

Just watched the first of Feynman's lectures (78 mins), he says it's definately particles (and never waves)!

The four lectures are here: The Vega Science Trust - Richard Feynman - Science Videos

 

[wade88]

This is all well and good lads, im totally getting what your saying......but how do you propose to explain....... Spidey sense then?! I mean, he neither "sees" nor "hears" any given event specifically, the relevant photons required to register the act as a sight or a sound may be miles away, yet somehow....he just "knows" whats going on.


I dare you fancy pants quantum physics dabblers to try and nail that one down

 

[topquark]

Distance is nothing, have a read of this: Entangled photons over 144 km

 

[Darkwood]

I get all my insight from Sheldon (The Big Bang Theory) best sitcom to come out of America

 

[Des 56]

I read watch and study this subject because it is absolutely fascinating
We as a species are rolling back frontiers of understanding that would be inconcievable even as late as the eighties


Its a damn shame that whilst being able to get a grasp of some of what I see and hear on the subject,its like having the proverbial black hole in my head,it drains away any understanding I imagine I had within moments of it becoming something that could be described as comprehensible to me

I am going to look at that forum, as long as there a few curtains I can hide behind whilst taking a peek :uhoh2:

 

[topquark]

I was a little put off by the rules Des. You can't bluesky and discuss possibilites/postulate from the way I read it.

 

[Darkwood]

Des, its when someone claims to understand Quantum Physics then i know they are lying, the hardest part about this sub-atomical world is translating it and using examples in the real world to try explain what is going on... unfortunately examples in the real world are hard to come by due to the sheer complexity and mind defying world that the quantum is.

It was the 2 slit experiment that first got me into this subject 20yrs ago and i was under the impression this was only an effect related to photons of light but a few years later found that atoms too gave similar results so even if you could relate to the experiment been what it is and light showing both particle and waveform signatures it turns out that atoms too with mass have the same results...... that hooked me ever since .... then 1999 they have found buckballs also give same results (carbon60 if i remember). Now that defy's common sense when large molecules express the same trend as a 'massless' photon.
Explain how a buckyball could be both a molecule which we can see through an electron microscope and behave like a wave to leave an interference pattern even if you sent one out it would land in pre-determined fields as though it intefered with itself.... but i dont mean the same as when my mum caught me at 13yr.......never mind

 

[Darkwood]

Think this forum needs a Nerd group setting up, i do believe we have our first 3 members lol

Job done ive created a group for our own pleasure ... join and discuss then it takes it off the main forum threads

You'll find it under the community tab' in groups.

 

[Silly Sausage]

The problem as I see it,I like this forum,so could I be in two places at one time ? lol

Possibly, if you were in an enclosed box...

As the cat daddy, Neils Bohr himself said, 'If anybody says he can think about quantum physics without getting giddy, that only shows he has not understood the first thing about it.' or variants thereof.

I'm going to have to re-read this thread again if I'm half awake tomorrow!

 

[topquark]

Watched two of the Feynman lectures now, helps explain some things, but as usual raises a lot more questions (and I really don't like the introduction of probability into the model to explain light reflection). The next one is about the electron.