Fuse board upgrade (PRIVATE)

[CopiamElectrical]

Hey guys,

Im starting to put my company out there more. And this is all a new journey for me being an apprentice and now being qualified/2391-52 qualified as well.

I was speaking to a friend about how he would go about a board change which I don’t agree with.

• tell customer a fixed price £800 inc materials and carry out a board change
• inform customer that the new board may not swim through (successful) due to XYZ fault.

Now this is my approach

- Carry out an EICR on a existing installation
Inform them £150-200 for an EICR (Hi madam/sir “name” your existing installation will require a periodic test to come to a conclusion whether it’s acceptable for a board change or not. (They might not like the sound of that and people don’t like pulling out money these days) I’m gonna also make it very clear that there may be faults which will require XYZ materials and labour time IF THERE IS.

- Once existing installation has been made safe/sound to BS7671 Regulations. And it’s satisfactory.

- Carry out a board upgrade - Conduct test again and issue out EIC.

I don’t even know… I might even be over complicating this from a customer point of view as they all get scared lol.

 

[Midwest]

When I did my cu changes, most were small domestic properties, and I wouldn’t have got much work charging for a EICR, then quote for cu change. I’d inform on the risks, test old cu few days before, then carry out the new change.

If it were a large property etc, then an EICR would make sense.

 

[7029 dave]

Rubbish, I can only think of 2 faults that could hamper a board change, forget the AFDD nonsense, and as for calling people bogers you cause great offence to your fellow colleagues rant over.

Bodger's wish the edit button would stay with the commentator lol

 

[Aaron b]

I generally carry out an EICR first, I think it makes sense to carry out some inspection's as your doing the testing anyway. I bill this as part of the board change though and don't repeat every test after.

The last one I didn't was a pain in the ---, three circuits with low IR and an incomplete neutral on another. It was a large property with a few extensions but looked in good repair.

 

[davesparks]

So what you’re saying is you’d chuck yourself in the deep end in a tenants house.

No, I never said that.

Agree a price to replace the fuseboard, carry out a couple test I.E Like what?? I want to know from your experience what you’d do.

No, I would discuss it fully with the customer when visiting to do the quote and at that point have a look at the basics to get a feel for what may or may not be involved.
I would check bonding, approximate age of the installation, obvious signs of DIY.
I'd drop a couple of pendant caps to have a look, have a look at any Outbuildings as they are a prime spot for issues.

My quote will include a line explaining that there may be hidden faults which will be brought to the attention of the customer and discussed.

And then replace the CCU, have fault, things tripping. And now with AFDD - ring circuits having high end to ends, open circuit or whichever fault, but main issue causing an arc, and trippage to AFDD

No, I test the circuits before removing the old CU and find anything that might be an issue before the point of no return.
But I have never yet found anything that can't be resolved, or at least made safe until it can be fully repaired, whilst doing a CU change.

IR values being low - informing tenant/customer he’s now going to require a rewire on XYZ circuit.

That's a ridiculous leap! You've jumped from a low IR value to suddenly needing a rewire?
If there is an unacceptable IR value then I would investigate the cause, not just write it off as needing a rewire!

It's also rare to find an unacceptably low IR.
What is far more common is electrician's who see anything other than a perfect result as being a problem.

Now the customer is going to be ----ed as to why you didn’t inform all of this in the first place.

I think the customer will be annoyed if you do carry out an EICR and then change the CU to find that things are tripping despite your assurance that an EICR will find the issues before you start! One of the common causes of tripping after a CU change is not found by carrying out the standard tests on an EICR, but can usually be found by having a quick look behind the switch at the top of the stairs.

I've never had a customer unhappy with me for any of this, I always take the time to discuss and explain everything.

In my experience it's tradespeople who don't take the time to properly explain what needs to be done, and why, that end up with angry customers.

I've watched another electrician try to explain to a customer the difference between an RCD and an MCB and it was obvious the electrician didn't fully understand what they were talking about so the customer was getting visibly annoyed and you could almost see them losing faith in the electrician.

But no you was trying to make the customer happy in the first place by making your price cheap and getting a bodge job done??

I never try to make customers happy with a cheap price, I keep my customers happy by understanding what they want/need, finding the best way to achieve this and getting it done within their timescales.

I don't generally do bodge jobs, and if I do it is a safe temporary solution to allow a customer to keep their business running until I can get a proper repair in place.


CU replacements are not the major project with constant massive issues that you seem to be making them out to be. Most will go smoothly, some you will find small faults that can be fixed very quickly if you know what you are doing and then every once in a while one will present more of a challenge.

You have to accept that every once in a while a job will go a bit wrong and you won't make as much money on it as you expected, you just have to accept it and still do the job properly. That is the kind of thing that really helps with building a good reputation.


People will happily tell all their friends about the tradesperson who didn't charge any extra despite a job going thoroughly wrong, they also love to talk about the time they got stung with a massive unexpected extras bill.

 

[loz2754]

No, I never said that.


No, I would discuss it fully with the customer when visiting to do the quote and at that point have a look at the basics to get a feel for what may or may not be involved.
I would check bonding, approximate age of the installation, obvious signs of DIY.
I'd drop a couple of pendant caps to have a look, have a look at any Outbuildings as they are a prime spot for issues.

My quote will include a line explaining that there may be hidden faults which will be brought to the attention of the customer and discussed.


No, I test the circuits before removing the old CU and find anything that might be an issue before the point of no return.
But I have never yet found anything that can't be resolved, or at least made safe until it can be fully repaired, whilst doing a CU change.

That's a ridiculous leap! You've jumped from a low IR value to suddenly needing a rewire?
If there is an unacceptable IR value then I would investigate the cause, not just write it off as needing a rewire!

It's also rare to find an unacceptably low IR.
What is far more common is electrician's who see anything other than a perfect result as being a problem.



I think the customer will be annoyed if you do carry out an EICR and then change the CU to find that things are tripping despite your assurance that an EICR will find the issues before you start! One of the common causes of tripping after a CU change is not found by carrying out the standard tests on an EICR, but can usually be found by having a quick look behind the switch at the top of the stairs.

I've never had a customer unhappy with me for any of this, I always take the time to discuss and explain everything.

In my experience it's tradespeople who don't take the time to properly explain what needs to be done, and why, that end up with angry customers.

I've watched another electrician try to explain to a customer the difference between an RCD and an MCB and it was obvious the electrician didn't fully understand what they were talking about so the customer was getting visibly annoyed and you could almost see them losing faith in the electrician.




I never try to make customers happy with a cheap price, I keep my customers happy by understanding what they want/need, finding the best way to achieve this and getting it done within their timescales.

I don't generally do bodge jobs, and if I do it is a safe temporary solution to allow a customer to keep their business running until I can get a proper repair in place.


CU replacements are not the major project with constant massive issues that you seem to be making them out to be. Most will go smoothly, some you will find small faults that can be fixed very quickly if you know what you are doing and then every once in a while one will present more of a challenge.

You have to accept that every once in a while a job will go a bit wrong and you won't make as much money on it as you expected, you just have to accept it and still do the job properly. That is the kind of thing that really helps with building a good reputation.


People will happily tell all their friends about the tradesperson who didn't charge any extra despite a job going thoroughly wrong, they also love to talk about the time they got stung with a massive unexpected extras bill.

This has to got to win the prize for the most level headed reasoning reply to a potentially inflammatory post I've ever read.

 

[davesparks]

I generally carry out an EICR first, I think it makes sense to carry out some inspection's as your doing the testing anyway. I bill this as part of the board change though and don't repeat every test after.

So you issue the customer a, presumably unsatisfactory, EICR listing a bunch of observations which a new CU will resolve and an EIC for the work when you do a CU change?
I just don't see the point of that?

The last one I didn't was a pain in the ---, three circuits with low IR and an incomplete neutral on another. It was a large property with a few extensions but looked in good repair.

How low was the IR?

 

[davesparks]

This has to got to win the prize for the most level headed reasoning reply to a potentially inflammatory post I've ever read.

You should have seen the first draft

 

[Aaron b]

So you issue the customer a, presumably unsatisfactory, EICR listing a bunch of observations which a new CU will resolve and an EIC for the work when you do a CU change?
I just don't see the point of that?



How low was the IR?

If I've had a look first and know the board will need changing I'll provide a price for the board including an EICR. I prefer to do the EICR the day before that way I can be prepared and agree on any additional work. I generally issue an EIC and a satisfactory EICR together. I usually pick up board changes whilst looking at other work so it usually ties in quite well.

It was 0.46Mohm if I remember correctly. Nothing to cause a trip but I would have rather known about it. The ring appeared to have been extended with jbs under the floor, I think it was one of them causing an open neutral. I had a spare 20a RCBO so put that in. There was a family emergency at the same time so that didn't help. I had assumed the two outbuildings were of the same feed but it was off a spur/blank single behind a large TV, if I had spotted it I would have found the outside sockets causing the low IR.

 

[davesparks]

I generally issue an EIC and a satisfactory EICR together.

Surely it must be an unsatisfactory EICR if it is carried out before the board change and other remedial works. If it is satisfactory then why is the board change etc required in the first place?

 

[DPG]

Surely it must be an unsatisfactory EICR if it is carried out before the board change and other remedial works. If it is satisfactory then why is the board change etc required in the first place?

I think he means after the board is changed he issues an EIC for the board change and an EICR for the whole installation.

 

[Aaron b]

Surely it must be an unsatisfactory EICR if it is carried out before the board change and other remedial works. If it is satisfactory then why is the board change etc required in the first place?

I suppose I could and if being particularly pedantic should issue a unsatisfactory EICR first but I'm sure most will sort issues during the inspection without recording the issue.

I prefer having a report stating I have inspected the property and the limitations and commented on my findings. If I say exposed basic insulation is a C3 because it's 4m in the air and the ceiling rose is plastered in, and made a poor call, I will be covered by my indemnity insurance. If I appear to ignore it, couldn't that be seen as negligence? I try and use it to emphasize that I'm testing the installation too and builders won't be offering the same service. The same with completing minor works certificates, I think it sets me apart from the handyman and covers me if anything goes wrong.

I can see you are diligent with your checks but how do you record recommendations on a EIC?

Selling a EICR wouldn't really happen in a well maintained property but I think it makes sense where I can point out issues without looking very far. I assume you would charge more where there's more risk too?

I haven't been doing domestic work professionally that long so I still have a lot to learn.