Fused spur from an immersion switch?

[Darkwood]

KAS1... read my post 71...

Ive provided relevent areas of the regs this falls under and even if the OP is too lazy to pull a floorboard or two up thats his call but i will re-iterate it is not bad practice it would fully comply and just throwing deep routed and empty opinions is only showing your inexperience (regarding this issue anyway)

If you wish to quote or debate my response at least post relevent area's of the reg's where it would contradict, im open to debate and will gladly step back hands in the air if im wrong or misunderstood an area of my job but ill always show my reasoning of which im waiting to see exactly why you think its bad practice, agree if other methods are available then they would be a better option but if limitation exist preventing alternative methods then choosing to add to I/H circuit is not bad practice.

 

[KAS1]

Need to put some power to a small wall mounted electric heater that takes will take it's power from a 5 amp fused switch outlet. It's in a flat and the least disruptive way I can see of doing this is by running a 2.5mm T&E cable from the immersion switch to the 5A switch fused spur then connecting the heater to this. The immersion is on its own 16A radial. I can't see anything that may not comply with regs on this but a colleague thinks different. Anyone provide clarification on this?

thanks

I've had a rethink on this, yeah just go ahead there's nothing in the regs to say you can't, just do it but don't tell your mate at work

 

[markc123]

Am i off to hell KAS for taking a 150w heater from a light switch via a FCU fused down to 2amp. baring in mind it was a caravan, about 8 lights in total. Could of gone back to the CU, a long run mind you - however, another sparky could quote and beat me to the job - yes its a small job so doesn't matter that much, but every little helps. And as KAS puts it "to make a quick buck" in this case, yes it was lol :shocked:

Was waiting for biff to get his claws in lol!

 

[Darkwood]

To note here as someone mentioned the neutrals in switches been bad practice ... we were told this by the clark of electrical works in the 90's and we would have to alter the wiring to omit the neutrals from the switches... this was my first run in with a paper pusher know it all and i quickly pointed out that no regulation to say i can't- he replied by saying i dont want it on any job im over seeing and its not up for debate.....

His face was a picture when i said so how do you expect me to feed the 240v buzzer for when the E/M lights are in test... seems an whole industry has designed products for use with bad practice methods.

Day 2 he apologised said its rare he's wrong as he is competent in his knowledge but he on this occasion has changed his views on the practice, as he admitted personal view over-rode actual regulation.

 

[KAS1]

I suppose in theory there is no reason he couldn't do as you've all said, perhaps he could run a 5amp lighting circuit from his IH, as you've all said as long as it complies with the latest regs no problem. The problem I have with it is where is it all going to end ie the 5amp lighting circuit maybe for his outside lights whatever next. I've seen it in the past where this type of thing has happened and someone has taken a conduit from a isolator for a machine and wired a socket from the incoming L and N back entry through the wall to a tea hut for a microwave and tried to convince me he was not breaking any regs etc well I call this practice a rough job, he didn't last long I can tell you, I and others like me do try to discourage this sort of workmanship, nipping it in the bud as they say. Thread closed lol

 

[Geoffsd]

Rubbish.

Don't forget to label the CU 'Extactor fan' on 'the lighting circuit' and label 'Fan must not exceed [whatever remains after deducting the lights from 6]A'.

 

[Darkwood]

I suppose in theory there is no reason he couldn't do as you've all said, perhaps he could run a 5amp lighting circuit from his IH, as you've all said as long as it complies with the latest regs no problem. The problem I have with it is where is it all going to end ie the 5amp lighting circuit maybe for his outside lights whatever next. I've seen it in the past where this type of thing has happened and someone has taken a conduit from a isolator for a machine and wired a socket from the incoming L and N back entry through the wall to a tea hut for a microwave and tried to convince me he was not breaking any regs etc well I call this practice a rough job, he didn't last long I can tell you, I and others like me do try to discourage this sort of workmanship, nipping it in the bud as they say. Thread closed lol

Your a bit vague as to your example here and yes in this case im more inclined to say it is bad practice as a fault on the microwave could render power loss to a machine and again this is covered in 314.1 (i) as this is where you can apply this rule, as mentioned you didnt supply full circuit details so cant comment on further contreventions...

Its knowing when the reg's are applicable sometimes alot of regs find more relevance in domestic as oppose to commercial and industrial and vice versa ... its often seen on here domestic bred boys/girls thinking things are bad practice just because its never encounted in their work environment... e.g. 3ph within a multi-gang switch is often thought to be a no-no by the domestic brigade but it actually is common practice as long as a 400v sticker is present to warn of higher than expected voltages.

 

[KAS1]

No problem with neutrals at switches, as long as they not switched instead of the live, don't mind DP switches that's fine with me, I think you'll find the reason neutrals were frowned upon at switches was because cowboys would switch them instead of the live, "thought that was a black switch wire mate" even seen them do it in conduit systems, pull neutrals down to switches for no reason and wire conduit system like it's a loop in loop out that's what we're all up against, so lets keep it simple for them, let's feed circuits from DB's after all that's what they are for or shall we call the said circuit a Immersion Heater Distribution Circuit. Perhaps that's a bit bit harsh, Dam it I'm with you chaps I'm been convinced it's a quick few quid in the back pocket.

 

[Geoffsd]

it's a quick few quid in the back pocket.

Or - not overcharging customer for totally unnecessary work

 

[KAS1]

That was a quick example you didn't need the full scope, it's just to highlight the fact that these who ask this type of question sometimes take the answers they get as gospel and think "that was alright in that case, so I can do ......." and then here we go good workmanship out of the window, all over the electrical industry we need to give good advice not this "well you could if you ..........." let's not take short cuts. Be honest some question I've seen on here they cannot be sparks in the sense of they have not had the correct training. Shame I couldn't spread myself thinner to of trained more people (only joking) All joking aside I've learned a lot the last couple of days it's opened my eyes up a lot I can tell you. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my posts but hey ho that's life bye all

 

[Guest111]

Just to throw in the obvious one,all sockets are fed from below client has laminate flooring all through so pulling a board not an option,immersion switch is in cupboard that joins bathroom.Cable up wall inside cupboard to top wire through wall from heater into fcu job done and customer happy,these days laminate flooring has a great impact on how to do a job,that may be the reason op wanted to do it the way he said.

 

[Geoffsd]

[sarcasm again]Surely you can't put heaters on a socket circuit.[/sarcasm again]

 

[Geoffsd]

That was a quick example you didn't need the full scope, it's just to highlight the fact that these who ask this type of question sometimes take the answers they get as gospel and think "that was alright in that case, so I can do ......." and then here we go good workmanship out of the window, all over the electrical industry we need to give good advice not this "well you could if you ..........." let's not take short cuts. Be honest some question I've seen on here they cannot be sparks in the sense of they have not had the correct training. Shame I couldn't spread myself thinner to of trained more people (only joking) All joking aside I've learned a lot the last couple of days it's opened my eyes up a lot I can tell you. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my posts but hey ho that's life bye all

Please tell us the regulation number which states that properly designed electrical circuits may not be connected to certain types of appliances.

 

[Darkwood]

Please tell us the regulation number which states that properly designed electrical circuits may not be connected to certain types of appliances.

Read my post 71 this covers any reg's that may stop you adding a tail circuit to existing dedicated load.

 

[onions1066]

WOW ! This is't the usual banter ! You guys know the regs backwards! Can i suggest you put down the regs and try a dictionary? Dedicated means dedicated no matter if there is capacity in the circuit is dedicated to the immersion heater.

No offence intended

Recommend dedicated

 

[Darkwood]

To re-iterate though the suggestion the OP made wouldn't fall foul of this but a similar suggestion KAS1 suggested with a machine and microwave oven most likely would as a fault with the microwave could interupt the supply to the machine and cause major disruption to production and downtime costs.

 

[Darkwood]

Recommend dedicated

If i wire 1 light in the cellar of the dist board it would be called dedicated because its on its own not because its required to be dedicated, if i then want to add say a fan through the wall off the same circuit does that mean im not allowed because it holds the title dedicated or as i suspect can i just put on the CU cellar light and fan and no longer give it its sole title. I.E. Demote the nature of the circuit.

 

[KAS1]

That's my point, let's not encourage people to bend the regs for the sake of a bit of laminate flooring, just give to the customer straight it can't be done without a bit of a bodge up. You have to be hard with them and when you catch them taking short cuts sack them, look how many on here think it's perfectly good practice but they don't seem to like the idea of running outside lights from the Immersion heater what's the difference lol

To re-iterate though the suggestion the OP made wouldn't fall foul of this but a similar suggestion KAS1 suggested with a machine and microwave oven most likely would as a fault with the microwave could interupt the supply to the machine and cause major disruption to production and downtime costs.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

That's my point, let's not encourage people to bend the regs for the sake of a bit of laminate flooring, just give to the customer straight it can't be done without a bit of a bodge up. You have to be hard with them and when you catch them taking short cuts sack them, look how many on here think it's perfectly good practice but they don't seem to like the idea of running outside lights from the Immersion heater what's the difference lol

nobody has suggested it's 'good practice'....The OP's original question concerned regulations,not good practice. Dont lose sight of that.

 

[HandySparks]

...just give to the customer straight it can't be done without a bit of a bodge up. You have to be hard with them and when you catch them taking short cuts sack them...

Sometimes I wish I could sack the customer!

 

[KAS1]

At last you see sense, that's why he asked the question about the regs so he knew it wasn't the done thing so to speak, giving them the advice people have they'll do it every time if it's "a bit hard to do it" then they pass that on to someone else and then on it goes.

nobody has suggested it's 'good practice'....The OP's original question concerned regulations,not good practice. Dont lose sight of that.

 

[whitestu]

Sometimes I wish I could sack the customer!

Most jobs would be 100% better if they didn't have customers!

 

[Darkwood]

That's my point, let's not encourage people to bend the regs for the sake of a bit of laminate flooring, just give to the customer straight it can't be done without a bit of a bodge up. You have to be hard with them and when you catch them taking short cuts sack them, look how many on here think it's perfectly good practice but they don't seem to like the idea of running outside lights from the Immersion heater what's the difference lol

Your misunderstanding my comment the reg 314.1 really has no scope in domestic as inconvenience is already minimal at most and rarely would create a hazard to be affected , lamps blow mcb's sometimes this is an inconvenience and following that reg' to the word and not giving common sense ground would mean filiment lamps couldn't be used but the inconvenience is more about disruption, downtime of computers, machines etc effecting numerous people or even losses in earnings and idol staff if a machine goes down due to unrelated fault..

Experience and judgement call is necessary here and using this reg out of its context is overkill, apply 314.1(i & ii) only where a hazard or true inconvenience is caused not where at worse the customer may have to switch off the immersion heater or respectively the wall heater to isolate a fault and allow the mcb to reset with re' to the OP case.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

At last you see sense, that's why he asked the question about the regs so he knew it wasn't the done thing so to speak, giving them the advice people have they'll do it every time if it's "a bit hard to do it" then they pass that on to someone else and then on it goes.

look after this I'm done here....but I'm not going to let you twist words to your own ends.
'Good Practice' generally means that it is the first and best way of doing things...you have suggested that contributors to this thread have implied that when wiring a heater it is 'perfectly good practice' to wire it from the immersion heater....that is NOT the case.
It can be done safely and within the regs, but it would not be the first choice method and nobody has said it is.

 

[decolad69]

look after this I'm done here....but I'm not going to let you twist words to your own ends.
'Good Practice' generally means that it is the first and best way of doing things...you have suggested that contributors to this thread have implied that when wiring a heater it is 'perfectly good practice' to wire it from the immersion heater....that is NOT the case.
It can be done safely and within the regs, but it would not be the first choice method and nobody has said it is.

It is something a DIY'r would do :devil: don't you think ? wind up :57: honest !