Fused spur from an immersion switch?

[Geoffsd]

Rubbish.

Don't forget to label the CU 'Extactor fan' on 'the lighting circuit' and label 'Fan must not exceed [whatever remains after deducting the lights from 6]A'.

 

[Darkwood]

I suppose in theory there is no reason he couldn't do as you've all said, perhaps he could run a 5amp lighting circuit from his IH, as you've all said as long as it complies with the latest regs no problem. The problem I have with it is where is it all going to end ie the 5amp lighting circuit maybe for his outside lights whatever next. I've seen it in the past where this type of thing has happened and someone has taken a conduit from a isolator for a machine and wired a socket from the incoming L and N back entry through the wall to a tea hut for a microwave and tried to convince me he was not breaking any regs etc well I call this practice a rough job, he didn't last long I can tell you, I and others like me do try to discourage this sort of workmanship, nipping it in the bud as they say. Thread closed lol

Your a bit vague as to your example here and yes in this case im more inclined to say it is bad practice as a fault on the microwave could render power loss to a machine and again this is covered in 314.1 (i) as this is where you can apply this rule, as mentioned you didnt supply full circuit details so cant comment on further contreventions...

Its knowing when the reg's are applicable sometimes alot of regs find more relevance in domestic as oppose to commercial and industrial and vice versa ... its often seen on here domestic bred boys/girls thinking things are bad practice just because its never encounted in their work environment... e.g. 3ph within a multi-gang switch is often thought to be a no-no by the domestic brigade but it actually is common practice as long as a 400v sticker is present to warn of higher than expected voltages.

 

[KAS1]

No problem with neutrals at switches, as long as they not switched instead of the live, don't mind DP switches that's fine with me, I think you'll find the reason neutrals were frowned upon at switches was because cowboys would switch them instead of the live, "thought that was a black switch wire mate" even seen them do it in conduit systems, pull neutrals down to switches for no reason and wire conduit system like it's a loop in loop out that's what we're all up against, so lets keep it simple for them, let's feed circuits from DB's after all that's what they are for or shall we call the said circuit a Immersion Heater Distribution Circuit. Perhaps that's a bit bit harsh, Dam it I'm with you chaps I'm been convinced it's a quick few quid in the back pocket.

 

[Geoffsd]

it's a quick few quid in the back pocket.

Or - not overcharging customer for totally unnecessary work

 

[KAS1]

That was a quick example you didn't need the full scope, it's just to highlight the fact that these who ask this type of question sometimes take the answers they get as gospel and think "that was alright in that case, so I can do ......." and then here we go good workmanship out of the window, all over the electrical industry we need to give good advice not this "well you could if you ..........." let's not take short cuts. Be honest some question I've seen on here they cannot be sparks in the sense of they have not had the correct training. Shame I couldn't spread myself thinner to of trained more people (only joking) All joking aside I've learned a lot the last couple of days it's opened my eyes up a lot I can tell you. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my posts but hey ho that's life bye all

 

[Guest111]

Just to throw in the obvious one,all sockets are fed from below client has laminate flooring all through so pulling a board not an option,immersion switch is in cupboard that joins bathroom.Cable up wall inside cupboard to top wire through wall from heater into fcu job done and customer happy,these days laminate flooring has a great impact on how to do a job,that may be the reason op wanted to do it the way he said.

 

[Geoffsd]

[sarcasm again]Surely you can't put heaters on a socket circuit.[/sarcasm again]

 

[Geoffsd]

That was a quick example you didn't need the full scope, it's just to highlight the fact that these who ask this type of question sometimes take the answers they get as gospel and think "that was alright in that case, so I can do ......." and then here we go good workmanship out of the window, all over the electrical industry we need to give good advice not this "well you could if you ..........." let's not take short cuts. Be honest some question I've seen on here they cannot be sparks in the sense of they have not had the correct training. Shame I couldn't spread myself thinner to of trained more people (only joking) All joking aside I've learned a lot the last couple of days it's opened my eyes up a lot I can tell you. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my posts but hey ho that's life bye all

Please tell us the regulation number which states that properly designed electrical circuits may not be connected to certain types of appliances.

 

[Darkwood]

Please tell us the regulation number which states that properly designed electrical circuits may not be connected to certain types of appliances.

Read my post 71 this covers any reg's that may stop you adding a tail circuit to existing dedicated load.

 

[onions1066]

WOW ! This is't the usual banter ! You guys know the regs backwards! Can i suggest you put down the regs and try a dictionary? Dedicated means dedicated no matter if there is capacity in the circuit is dedicated to the immersion heater.

No offence intended

Recommend dedicated

 

[Darkwood]

To re-iterate though the suggestion the OP made wouldn't fall foul of this but a similar suggestion KAS1 suggested with a machine and microwave oven most likely would as a fault with the microwave could interupt the supply to the machine and cause major disruption to production and downtime costs.

 

[Darkwood]

Recommend dedicated

If i wire 1 light in the cellar of the dist board it would be called dedicated because its on its own not because its required to be dedicated, if i then want to add say a fan through the wall off the same circuit does that mean im not allowed because it holds the title dedicated or as i suspect can i just put on the CU cellar light and fan and no longer give it its sole title. I.E. Demote the nature of the circuit.

 

[KAS1]

That's my point, let's not encourage people to bend the regs for the sake of a bit of laminate flooring, just give to the customer straight it can't be done without a bit of a bodge up. You have to be hard with them and when you catch them taking short cuts sack them, look how many on here think it's perfectly good practice but they don't seem to like the idea of running outside lights from the Immersion heater what's the difference lol

To re-iterate though the suggestion the OP made wouldn't fall foul of this but a similar suggestion KAS1 suggested with a machine and microwave oven most likely would as a fault with the microwave could interupt the supply to the machine and cause major disruption to production and downtime costs.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

That's my point, let's not encourage people to bend the regs for the sake of a bit of laminate flooring, just give to the customer straight it can't be done without a bit of a bodge up. You have to be hard with them and when you catch them taking short cuts sack them, look how many on here think it's perfectly good practice but they don't seem to like the idea of running outside lights from the Immersion heater what's the difference lol

nobody has suggested it's 'good practice'....The OP's original question concerned regulations,not good practice. Dont lose sight of that.

 

[HandySparks]

...just give to the customer straight it can't be done without a bit of a bodge up. You have to be hard with them and when you catch them taking short cuts sack them...

Sometimes I wish I could sack the customer!

 

[KAS1]

At last you see sense, that's why he asked the question about the regs so he knew it wasn't the done thing so to speak, giving them the advice people have they'll do it every time if it's "a bit hard to do it" then they pass that on to someone else and then on it goes.

nobody has suggested it's 'good practice'....The OP's original question concerned regulations,not good practice. Dont lose sight of that.

 

[whitestu]

Sometimes I wish I could sack the customer!

Most jobs would be 100% better if they didn't have customers!

 

[Darkwood]

That's my point, let's not encourage people to bend the regs for the sake of a bit of laminate flooring, just give to the customer straight it can't be done without a bit of a bodge up. You have to be hard with them and when you catch them taking short cuts sack them, look how many on here think it's perfectly good practice but they don't seem to like the idea of running outside lights from the Immersion heater what's the difference lol

Your misunderstanding my comment the reg 314.1 really has no scope in domestic as inconvenience is already minimal at most and rarely would create a hazard to be affected , lamps blow mcb's sometimes this is an inconvenience and following that reg' to the word and not giving common sense ground would mean filiment lamps couldn't be used but the inconvenience is more about disruption, downtime of computers, machines etc effecting numerous people or even losses in earnings and idol staff if a machine goes down due to unrelated fault..

Experience and judgement call is necessary here and using this reg out of its context is overkill, apply 314.1(i & ii) only where a hazard or true inconvenience is caused not where at worse the customer may have to switch off the immersion heater or respectively the wall heater to isolate a fault and allow the mcb to reset with re' to the OP case.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

At last you see sense, that's why he asked the question about the regs so he knew it wasn't the done thing so to speak, giving them the advice people have they'll do it every time if it's "a bit hard to do it" then they pass that on to someone else and then on it goes.

look after this I'm done here....but I'm not going to let you twist words to your own ends.
'Good Practice' generally means that it is the first and best way of doing things...you have suggested that contributors to this thread have implied that when wiring a heater it is 'perfectly good practice' to wire it from the immersion heater....that is NOT the case.
It can be done safely and within the regs, but it would not be the first choice method and nobody has said it is.

 

[decolad69]

look after this I'm done here....but I'm not going to let you twist words to your own ends.
'Good Practice' generally means that it is the first and best way of doing things...you have suggested that contributors to this thread have implied that when wiring a heater it is 'perfectly good practice' to wire it from the immersion heater....that is NOT the case.
It can be done safely and within the regs, but it would not be the first choice method and nobody has said it is.

It is something a DIY'r would do :devil: don't you think ? wind up :57: honest !

 

[Steve_P]

Is this really still going on? Haven't read but are the handbags away yet?

 

[Geoffsd]

One final point ???

Which other 'dedicated' circuit do we design so that Ib is half Iz?

It would suggest some spare capacity, don't you think?

 

[Guest55]

Is this really still going on? Haven't read but are the handbags away yet?

i carry a knuckle-duster in my handbag.
;-)

 

[Big n Daft]

So it might be, but why encourage someone who doesn't really know what he's doing, to commit bad practice, this is the a sort of question if someone on site asked me I would think Oh my God where has he learned his trade and send he back to the agency lol

KAS, I do hope your not suggesting that all agency sparks are incompetant.

 

[KAS1]

No, sorry my apologies that was not called for, I should never of posted that, once again my apologies,sorry if I upset anyone I wasn't thinking, that was a stupid thing to post up on the net, I can assure you it won't happen again.

KAS, I do hope your not suggesting that all agency sparks are incompetant.

 

[markc123]

KAS, with that grovel...did you get a final warning or something?

 

[KAS1]

Not sure, I've only had the one, how many can I have ................

KAS, with that grovel...did you get a final warning or something?

 

[Sintra]

Not sure, I've only had the one, how many can I have ................

One......

 

[Guest55]

One......

unless you have a troll badge lol
my forum infractions list spans many pages ;-D

 

[KAS1]

That's a shame I've just been reading the thread about the so called spark with his quick route into the trade v an apprentice I'm struggling not to have a good swear at him let me tell you, he should try getting a JIB grade and I know it will come back as an adult trainee not as a qualified spark, I can assure you I would not sign his application like I have many others in my days at the .................to be cont

One......

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some threads in the Electrical Wiring Theories and Regulations forum category here on our Electricians Forums. If this specific topic isn't current, just ignore it, it'll drop off the list in no time. However, if it's something you'd like to contribute to, feel free to reply and bring it back into current discussion.