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Greenday

What size of array in kWp can you go up to before you have to do a pre install G83 application.

Central networks say 3.68kWp of panels is the maximum before the pre application on Appendix 2 has to made. They quote 45 days for a response although in practice at the moment it can be done in 2-3 weeks.

The 3.68kWp @ 230V would keep it below 16 Amp per phase. My argument with them is that it's what the inverter is rated at that is important and this is typically always smaller then the Array output if you use manufacturers design software.

What are other installers expereince with different DNO's
 
G83 refers to 16A per phase and 4kW per phase keeps you inside that as far as electricity boards are concerned (although in actual fact this is slightly more than 16A)

You do not need to notify the electricity board for anything that is G83 until the install is completed.

I would assume that the 4kW per phase figure refers to maximum solar array size and not inverter size.
 
I would be very careful if you install in the Central Networks area as in the past they have never queried installs up to 3.8kWp.

They have rejected a 3.8kWp install we have completed and require an appendix 2 G83 application. This application process should be done pre install.

We always do a pre install application if we are up at 4kWp as a well matched inverter would definetly be over 16A per phase
 
My experience is that Central Networks (rightly) have no problem with anything up to 16A output, and use the max inverter output current you specify on the G83 appendix form you submit after installation for their decision and power calc. (this is where the 3.68kW comes from - not to be confused with kWp rating of the modules). Nothing to stop you hanging 10kWp of modules on the roof (other than common sense) providing the inverter can't dump more than 16A onto the grid. It is entirely feasible that 4kWp of modules will work well on an inverter rated at no more than 16A output.
 
I have actually asked someone from MCS this very question and he reckons that 4kW was the limit, rather than the 16A. Maybe I need to change my perspective?
 
The limit is 16A according to G83 ie. a nominal 3.68kW system output. Not to be confused with kWp of the modules, where 4kWp is the limit before the feed in tariff drops. Wouldn't be the first time someone from MCS didn't know what they were on about.
 
The jobsworth I spoke to at Central Networks said they will not accept a post install G83 on modules greater than 3.68kWp irrespective of inverter output.

They pick up the array output off the as installed/proposed install diagram, so theres no hiding it.

I always assumed they took the Amps output from the G83 info for the inverter that you have to submit. Apparently this is not the case as the letter I have in front of me proves.

Can anyone on here help clear up this grey area as one day this is going to cost an installer in charges to strenghten the grid after they have completed an install. I guess if we all start pre install notifying of an installation that a back log will build up delaying installations
 
There is a lack of clarity on this issue and each DNO seems to have their own interpretation. I wrote to OFGEM a couple of weeks ago to try to get clarification on a number of these issues around G83 and the threshold values. I have not yet had a reply.

Here is the letter:

Dear sirs,

we write regarding the issue of OFGEM policy and implementation of DNO terms and conditions surrounding the aspect of the 16A per phase limit as it relates to the installation of renewable technologies under the terms of Engineering Recommendation G83.

We have heard reports of recent instances where DNOs are either refusing connection for <3.6kW domestic renewable systems under the terms of G83 or requiring payment in order to perform local network reinforcement in order to allow G83 compliant systems to be connected.

Also some DNOs have indicated that they require prior notification of an installer's intention to connect a new system under G83 prior to commissioning and that they retain the right to refuse any such connection or impose other terms. We fully understand that DNOs can make these requests where multiple G83 systems are involved, but this now appears to be the DNOs approach on individual systems
as well.

This does not align with our understanding of the way that Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002 require DNOs to behave with regard to individual G83 connections.

We also note that DNOs receive some level of compensation for Distributed Generation (which is inclusive of capacity for G83 systems) under the terms of CRC11 in DPCR5. If DNOs are now also charging G83 customers for network reinforcement measures then does this not lead to some level of double funding for DNOs that would be outside the terms of their operating licence from OFGEM?

We have heard reports that OFGEM have taken steps in the past to prevent DNOs from charging customers for costs of network reinforcement where G83 systems are concerned. Is this correct and, if so, can you confirm under what basis this was done and what procedures customers should follow to seek this redress?

Additionally, we would like to take this opportunity to seek clarification from OFGEM on the following closely related matters.

1. DNOs are allowed to use their discretion to accept a >16A per phase system under G83 terms, based on their knowledge of the local network capacity. Once a DNO gives their agreement on this basis is this decision irrevocable or are they allowed to change the terms at a later date (when other changes may have happened in the meantime, such as additional G83 systems being connected in a locality) and then request that the original system complies with G59 - including requiring the customer to pay any associated DNO costs? Also clarify this matter where such multiple systems (such as wind and PV) may be connected at a single location over a period of time where, taken individually, each system comes below the G83 threshold but, taken together, they may exceed it.

2. As regards multiple G83 connections, in a single locality at the same time, are the costs of any required network reinforcement, that may be required to accommodate these, to be passed on to customers or to be borne by the DNO?

3. Can we get clarity as to exactly what the 16A per phase limit for G83 actually relates to? Is it based on:
a) the Declared Net Capacity or the Total Installed Capacity of the system (as given on the MCS commissioning certificate) ?
b) the manufacturers quoted peak output of the PV panels (or other applicable prime mover 'nameplate' figure) ?
c) the maximum grid-tie inverter output?
d) if it is based on the inverter output then is it based on the manufacturer's maximum rating for the model of inverter or based on the (sometimes programmable) actual maximum inverter output figure
e) figures used at a - d above are usually given in Watts - so, in order to convert to Amps, is 230V or 240V to be assumed? I believe the definition in G83 specifically states "230V ac" but many DNOs seem unaware of this minor fact.
f) can you confirm the maximum Watts applicable to a 3-phase supply?

4. Can OFGEM please confirm that DNOs are not entitled to charge any costs connected with making an offer for connection, as was laid out in Section 98 of the Energy Act 2008, in respect of G83 connections where a grid connection for import already exists at a location, until such time that the Secretary of State may make such an order, and that such an order would explicitly include or, indeed, exclude G83 connections from such a charging scheme?

5. How might the G83 threshold apply in a situation where a >16A per phase system has been designed to prevent no more than 16A per phase from being exported; e.g. a controller and dump load used for on-site heating for any excess that might be generated?

Would it also perhaps be timely to pass answers to these questions to all DNOs with a reminder of how they should be handling individual and multiple G83 connection requests, concerning both process and costs, so that there is a common experience for both renewables installers and prospective system owners across the whole of the UK? Perhaps it would be appropriate for these matters to be discussed at a forthcoming meeting of the Distribution Code Review Panel?
 
Your letter address's all the concerns we have surrounding G83.

I had a conversation with an engineer from Central Networks four months ago about this issue and couldn't get clear guidance. Unfortunately I had the same conversation with the same stroppy engineer on Friday and he would go no further with an explanation on policy than "you cant install more than 3.68kWp of panels mate-end of"

I think all on here would appreciate hearing what response you get to your letter--could you keep us informed?

To protect ourselves we are going to pre notify before installing anything over 3.68kWp of modules until their policy is clear

Our engineer chap added as a parting shot that Central Networks were going to put an idiots guide on their web site so i'll keep my eyes open for that!--nice helpful chap :rolleyes:
 
There is a lack of clarity on this issue and each DNO seems to have their own interpretation. I wrote to OFGEM a couple of weeks ago to try to get clarification on a number of these issues around G83 and the threshold values. I have not yet had a reply.

Here is the letter:

Dear sirs,

we write regarding the issue of OFGEM policy and implementation of DNO terms and conditions surrounding the aspect of the 16A per phase limit as it relates to the installation of renewable technologies under the terms of Engineering Recommendation G83.

We have heard reports of recent instances where DNOs are either refusing connection for <3.6kW domestic renewable systems under the terms of G83 or requiring payment in order to perform local network reinforcement in order to allow G83 compliant systems to be connected.

Also some DNOs have indicated that they require prior notification of an installer's intention to connect a new system under G83 prior to commissioning and that they retain the right to refuse any such connection or impose other terms. We fully understand that DNOs can make these requests where multiple G83 systems are involved, but this now appears to be the DNOs approach on individual systems
as well.

This does not align with our understanding of the way that Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002 require DNOs to behave with regard to individual G83 connections.

We also note that DNOs receive some level of compensation for Distributed Generation (which is inclusive of capacity for G83 systems) under the terms of CRC11 in DPCR5. If DNOs are now also charging G83 customers for network reinforcement measures then does this not lead to some level of double funding for DNOs that would be outside the terms of their operating licence from OFGEM?

We have heard reports that OFGEM have taken steps in the past to prevent DNOs from charging customers for costs of network reinforcement where G83 systems are concerned. Is this correct and, if so, can you confirm under what basis this was done and what procedures customers should follow to seek this redress?

Additionally, we would like to take this opportunity to seek clarification from OFGEM on the following closely related matters.

1. DNOs are allowed to use their discretion to accept a >16A per phase system under G83 terms, based on their knowledge of the local network capacity. Once a DNO gives their agreement on this basis is this decision irrevocable or are they allowed to change the terms at a later date (when other changes may have happened in the meantime, such as additional G83 systems being connected in a locality) and then request that the original system complies with G59 - including requiring the customer to pay any associated DNO costs? Also clarify this matter where such multiple systems (such as wind and PV) may be connected at a single location over a period of time where, taken individually, each system comes below the G83 threshold but, taken together, they may exceed it.

2. As regards multiple G83 connections, in a single locality at the same time, are the costs of any required network reinforcement, that may be required to accommodate these, to be passed on to customers or to be borne by the DNO?

3. Can we get clarity as to exactly what the 16A per phase limit for G83 actually relates to? Is it based on:
a) the Declared Net Capacity or the Total Installed Capacity of the system (as given on the MCS commissioning certificate) ?
b) the manufacturers quoted peak output of the PV panels (or other applicable prime mover 'nameplate' figure) ?
c) the maximum grid-tie inverter output?
d) if it is based on the inverter output then is it based on the manufacturer's maximum rating for the model of inverter or based on the (sometimes programmable) actual maximum inverter output figure
e) figures used at a - d above are usually given in Watts - so, in order to convert to Amps, is 230V or 240V to be assumed? I believe the definition in G83 specifically states "230V ac" but many DNOs seem unaware of this minor fact.
f) can you confirm the maximum Watts applicable to a 3-phase supply?

4. Can OFGEM please confirm that DNOs are not entitled to charge any costs connected with making an offer for connection, as was laid out in Section 98 of the Energy Act 2008, in respect of G83 connections where a grid connection for import already exists at a location, until such time that the Secretary of State may make such an order, and that such an order would explicitly include or, indeed, exclude G83 connections from such a charging scheme?

5. How might the G83 threshold apply in a situation where a >16A per phase system has been designed to prevent no more than 16A per phase from being exported; e.g. a controller and dump load used for on-site heating for any excess that might be generated?

Would it also perhaps be timely to pass answers to these questions to all DNOs with a reminder of how they should be handling individual and multiple G83 connection requests, concerning both process and costs, so that there is a common experience for both renewables installers and prospective system owners across the whole of the UK? Perhaps it would be appropriate for these matters to be discussed at a forthcoming meeting of the Distribution Code Review Panel?

Couldn't of put it better myself. Don't think you missed anything out there. Well done and a very useful post. Keep us up to date when or IF you get a reply. Thanks
 
Of course I'll be happy to post any response I get. I don't plan to let this drop and my MP will be rolled into the firing line if I don't get a sensible reply with the next month or so, and escalated from there any way I can find.
 
Quite right too. As usual, the rules aren't clear but you can bet they'll be enforced with great vigour and little common sense. What chance do we have?
 
Spoke to a guy from Scottish & Southern last week. Now the new version of G59 has been released they are being more stringent on the G83 limit. They are reviewing the situation and I was advised to keep within the 3.68kWp limit for the time being. More clarification maybe avaiable in a few weeks.
 
We have a meeting with ofgem on the 12/1/2011. We have had numerous returns from the dno for all over 3.6 kw. first time in 10 months we are now putting pre installation applications for all over 3.6 kw. A bit of a git as we have installed over 160 systems 70% of which are over 3.6kw
 
From my experience i've had touble connecting a 3.5kW system and have been told that the biggest PV system i can install on one house is only 1.9kW. This is way below the 16A G83 limit. Problem is due to overhead lines. On higher outputs the voltage would rise due to volt drop and the inverter would shutdown. Just as well we checked before we installed.
On another note we can apply for an extended G83 up to 42A rather than use G59. My advice is to get a friendly engineer from your DNO and check before you install anything.

simon
South West Free Energy Solar Powers, Solar Energy, Save on your Electricity Bill South Devon
 
From my experience i've had touble connecting a 3.5kW system and have been told that the biggest PV system i can install on one house is only 1.9kW. This is way below the 16A G83 limit. Problem is due to overhead lines. On higher outputs the voltage would rise due to volt drop and the inverter would shutdown. Just as well we checked before we installed.
On another note we can apply for an extended G83 up to 42A rather than use G59. My advice is to get a friendly engineer from your DNO and check before you install anything.

simon
South West Free Energy Solar Powers, Solar Energy, Save on your Electricity Bill South Devon

Out of interest what DNO is that?
 
Reply received from OFGEM concerning the email I sent (see earlier post):


Many thanks for your email. My colleagues in Consumer Affairs passed your query on to me a few days ago and I am now emailing you with our response.



As an initial point we would like to direct you to the DG information guide which has recently been published on the ENA website http://2010.energynetworks.org/link-to-engineering-documents/ (see first 4 documents under Engineering documents-free to download).
This document should clarify quite a few of the queries you have raised below. In addition, there is a feedback mechanism in place to comment on this guide and alert the ENA if there are any bits of information missing. We would also be happy to hear if any information has been found to be missing from the guide.


In addition, we wish to point out that the G83 standard is administered and interpreted by the ENA and therefore several of your technical questions regarding the meaning of this standard should be directed to the ENA in the first instance.



Therefore, I would advise you to review the DG information guide. If you could then let me know if any of your queries are still outstanding. In the meantime, we are reviewing the sections of your query that we feel we can respond to.


Kind Regards


Stacy Altman
Senior Policy Analyst
 

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