Grain loading machine wiring

[dlt27]

Please could someone help!

When in manual this grain loading machine works if start button is held in. Ie when start button is released hold in contact not keeping contactor held in.
I am only your basic everyday spark so could do with some advice if possible.
Also could someone explain what a paused start recycler is?. Is it just a timer?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[JohnnyRingmain]

Scrap that.

 

[dlt27]

I'll have a look. Thanks

 

[PEG]

Have a gander at the E/S circuit first.

The interval timer, is precisely that.

Is this a loader or a feeder?

 

[dlt27]

Its for loading grain into bags. E/s circuit?
Thanks

 

[Darkwood]

This is a machine and falls outside the standard guidelines of the BS7671, in asking on here it is clear you have little to no experience in such work as you openly admit therefore I can only suggest you keep away from such work, if you get involved and further down the line this machine injures or worse kills someone then you will most likely be having to explain yourself of why you were tampering or trying to fix it with absolutely no experience or qualifications.

Is there anything actually wrong here?... you say you have to hold the button in when in manual mode, are you sure this is not how it should work?

I can assume automatic will cycle a routine based on its design and job until a condition is met to stop it, I would also make the guess that manual may let you feed the material in yourself using you as the feedback circuit so maybe it operates how it should here (lack of info), the wiring plan is hard to make out on a phone but looks like the manual option overides the TC feed and return, we need to know what the TC is and also the type of relay used (not shown in the diagram) and how the recycler is set up as they tend to have multiple applications. A good knowledge of the machine and it's working order are needed to be involved with this.

 

[Andy-1960]

Yes, I totally agree with Darkwood, I noticed that the overload does not actually stop the motor if the drawing is correct. There is an overload fitted, but I cannot see any auxiliary contact from the overload to drop out the motor contactor. I am also concerned at the lack of safety circuitry in what sounds like quite a dangerous machine. I think the machine as a whole needs a risk assessment then a functional design specification to be written prior to a new control system being built.

 

[dlt27]

Thanks for advice. I would not even think about changing wiring I just thought it might be a contactor/ relay or the recycler not working and thought it might be a case of just changing like for like if somebody could of given me a cause why it wasn't working properley.
However now you said it I'm not sure if it isn't working correctly.
All I know is farmer said it wasn't working correctly and also what made me laugh was that he showed me how he got it to work. He pushed start button in and clamped some molegrips on rim of start button to keep it in. I found the drawing in the starter.
Thanks for advice.

 

[Darkwood]

I would tend on this occasion to believe the farmer given he has taken unusual inventive steps to operate it as it use to work, it could be a variety of things, but I would hone down what ever is used to retain the contactor in, also it is possible it has been designed incorrectly where the start circuit has priority on stop (trust me I have seen market level rigs done this dangerous way).. what this means is the stop circuit may be open but due to incorrect wiring the machine can be made to run by holding the start button... I would leave this to an experienced competent person in this field, from experience simply swapping and changing items can be costly and not resolve what may be a 5min repair to those in the know, I have in the past seen nearly £1k spent trying to resolve a control issue by those not competent, I identified and repaired for less than £50, the other person didn't get his invoice paid, an expensive mistake created by himself for delving into work he should leave well alone.

 

[Rocboni]

Yes, I totally agree with Darkwood, I noticed that the overload does not actually stop the motor if the drawing is correct. There is an overload fitted, but I cannot see any auxiliary contact from the overload to drop out the motor contactor. I am also concerned at the lack of safety circuitry in what sounds like quite a dangerous machine. I think the machine as a whole needs a risk assessment then a functional design specification to be written prior to a new control system being built.

Overload will drop out the contactor as it's wired theough 95 and 96?

There are no hold in contacts wired on the start button as far as I can see, when in auto mode it bypasses the start switch and works only with what I assume are limit switches.

 

[Darkwood]

I just checked the wiring plan, its poorly designed, I can see why the start works like it does because it has priority on stop, it is a dangerous set-up by design, the TC seems to be what retains the supply when start is used in manual but you should never be able to do what is happening if the stop circuit is open..... try holding the stop button in then press start, if what I suspect is correct then it will still run when the start in in and the stop too... if so walk away!

 

[Darkwood]

Overload will drop out the contactor as it's wired theough 95 and 96?

There are no hold in contacts wired on the start button as far as I can see, when in auto mode it bypasses the start switch and works only with what I assume are limit switches.

TC acts as the retaining contact but like I said above, it's a very bad design and non compliant.

 

[PEG]

The explanation above,is concise enough,but a few questions to your inventive farmer,may have answered them earlier.

When was this machine installed,by who,and when did the mole-grips come out? To overcome a problem or out of boredom?

A description of what exactly the machine does,would be handy. Usually the interval timers,have back-up from load cell or IR/beam sensor inputs,as duration of operation,in materials handling,is notoriously inaccurate.

 

[netblindpaul]

I just checked the wiring plan, its poorly designed, I can see why the start works like it does because it has priority on stop, it is a dangerous set-up by design, the TC seems to be what retains the supply when start is used in manual but you should never be able to do what is happening if the stop circuit is open..... try holding the stop button in then press start, if what I suspect is correct then it will still run when the start in in and the stop too... if so walk away!

DW,
I have not looked at the drawings and things, but, I know that you know your stuff, and for you to say that, which I will take as correct, means that the machine has actually been placed on the market illegally and if it is in use, then the user is committing a criminal offence as well as the "person" placing the equipment on the market.

This nonsense needs to be stopped.

Why should people be allowed to break the law and get away with it, at the expense of those who act legally?
It is simply wrong, and totally immoral.
The EU were supposed to stop this from happening, but it hasn't stopped.
The laws are in place, but, they are not enforced.
So why do we have laws that are not enforced?

 

[Darkwood]

@netblindpaul
You can't blame the customer normally, it's no their job to know the standards but judging by the gear inside the control panel it's has been modified not too long ago ( within last decade) whether it follows the regulations is another thing, but if they followed the original wiring plans then they are obviously not competent to do any replacements or upgrades.