Grenfell tower electrical "expert"

[johnduffell]

For some reason, the grenfell tower inquiry has got an american electrical expert to comment on the electrical cause of the fire. And he doesn't seem to know a lot about BS7671 etc,

Firstly he thinks you can't trip an RCD after the MCB has tripped of a given circuit (presumably they have DP MCBs over there?), and secondly he thinks it's very improbable to trip an RCD and MCB simultaneously. Therefore he thinks most likely this happened in the first few minutes of the fire:

https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/file/2822/download?token=crUe0vAo

He also seems to think a more "violent" short circuit would be more likely to start a fire because the MCB wouldn't trip quick enough. And he uses the total clearance time (rather than pre-arc time) to decide whether there's discrimination between a B32 and a 13A fuse.

They could have got any british electrician in and they'd have done a better job than this guy!

 

[marconi]

The cause of the fire is irrelevant, although it's required for completeness in the investigation.

I think the cause(ignition event) of the fire is highly relevant, especially when the fire it begins can spread and affect so many people as in a HMO or block of flats.

I say this because I think that some equipment - let us stick for now with electro-mechanical like a fridge or freezer - become less and less safe as they wear out . So, if I ruled the world, permanently energised and unattended items such as refrigeration, anything with a bare element air cooled electric heater (ie a tumble dryer but not necessarily a washing machine) would have a 'safe life defined' and stamped on it or better a device inside it which kills its function after a suitable warning period.

In our household the TD, WM, DW get changed every 3 years and fridge-freezer and freezer every 5 years. Amortised over these periods I reckon such equipments have given excellent returns on capital. eg: Our latest FF cost £350. So 350/(365 x 5) = 1/5 = 20p a day - which in this day and age is pittance.

 

[ackbarthestar]

The London chief fire officer when he gave his statement to the enquiry said they knew this would happen and knew there was nothing they could do to prevent the control. Although was totally shocked at the speed of combustion.
How many blocks of flats have the same cladding and conditions similar to those at the Grenfell tower?
Absolute tragedy for all those families...

 

[johnduffell]

Well to follow this up, I'm pleased to say that Whirlpool have completely shredded the evidence of that expert, amongst other obvious points they pointed out that smoke can't trip an RCD in a non smoky area of a flat within 4 minutes, and a fridge freezer doesn't take 5-10Amps!
If you're interested in the full lawyer speak it's here: https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/file/3590/download?token=k-HlEZG1

 

[FatAlan]

Would be interesting to know how much the ‘expert witness’ charged for his ‘opinion’ . Anyone know if they are based in the UK. If I were running the enquiry I’d be looking at someone from the IET who knew the wiring regs and science behind it inside out.

 

[Squid]

LAptop playing up

EMF?

 

[Squid]

I know its the DM but the scum that crawled out of the woodwork is unbelievable and with names that off the top of my head I could'nt spell......

The 14 Grenfell ghouls who stole £670,000 from the disaster's relief fund through lies and deceit | Daily Mail Online - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6498099/The-14-Grenfell-ghouls-stole-670-000-disasters-relief-fund-lies-deceit.html

 

[mattg4321]

The cause of the fire is irrelevant, although it's required for completeness in the investigation.

I think the cause(ignition event) of the fire is highly relevant, especially when the fire it begins can spread and affect so many people as in a HMO or block of flats.

I say this because I think that some equipment - let us stick for now with electro-mechanical like a fridge or freezer - become less and less safe as they wear out . So, if I ruled the world, permanently energised and unattended items such as refrigeration, anything with a bare element air cooled electric heater (ie a tumble dryer but not necessarily a washing machine) would have a 'safe life defined' and stamped on it or better a device inside it which kills its function after a suitable warning period.

In our household the TD, WM, DW get changed every 3 years and fridge-freezer and freezer every 5 years. Amortised over these periods I reckon such equipments have given excellent returns on capital. eg: Our latest FF cost £350. So 350/(365 x 5) = 1/5 = 20p a day - which in this day and age is pittance.

I can see where you're coming from, but wouldn't this just cause a race to the bottom quality wise?

Manufacturers would be even less interested in quality (read safety?) than they are now as the parts would only need to last a few years. Prices would inevitably drop and even the premium brands would have to go in the same direction. Why buy a Miele tumble dryer at £1000 if you're going to bin it in 3 years?

I could see this actually causing the opposite effect to that intended.

 

[Squid]

I can see where you're coming from, but wouldn't this just cause a race to the bottom quality wise?

Manufacturers would be even less interested in quality (read safety?) than they are now as the parts would only need to last a few years. Prices would inevitably drop and even the premium brands would have to go in the same direction. Why buy a Miele tumble dryer at £1000 if you're going to bin it in 3 years?

I could see this actually causing the opposite effect to that intended.

Someone living in a council allocated accommodation would not be buying a £1000 Miele tumble dryer, the person that buys an item at that price knows how to look after it as at least they are able to read the instruction manual supplied with the product.

 

[FatAlan]

I think manufacturers are already designing in a limited life span on products.

 

[johnduffell]

I know its the DM but the scum that crawled out of the woodwork is unbelievable and with names that off the top of my head I could'nt spell......

Not sure what your spelling problems have to do with it, but a few in a million is not unbelievable at all, in fact it seems a bit low and I'm wondering whether they screened most people out earlier, or a lot of the cases were dropped. Think of the result as a shake-down of opportunist desperate fraudsters out of the million or two people living in west London.
The one that sticks in my throat though is the person who siphoned off the funds who was supposed to be looking after the money for the other people. Does make you wonder how much siphoning is going on where it's not scrutinised as much, as that is one person in a few hundred who would have had financial roles in the aftermath.

 

[Squid]

The spelling problems are in regards to the fact that the ones that are allowed in to the Uk should be making it a better place to live, not robbing us blind.

 

[johnduffell]

The spelling problems are in regards to the fact that the ones that are allowed in to the Uk should be making it a better place to live, not robbing us blind.

I think you need to go on a crash course in statistics before you can comment on this really. At a guess 25% of london is foreign born, probably half of those have names you struggle to spell so let's say a million. And you appear to be implying 13 out of a million people are convicted fraudsters is disproportionately high?
And assuming you don't struggle to spell "Jenny McDonagh" then that's one person out of only hundreds with a duty of care and a financial responsibility over this, so I'm not sure where that leave us as the biggest problem (although my opinion is the structures of power are the problem, not the people)

 

[Squid]

People would struggle to spell my name, but when my parents came to the UK they did their best to make it a better place as they where grateful for somewhere to live in peace, a lot of the new "incomers" are here to just line their own pockets, do you have the stats for that?

 

[FatAlan]

Thankfully legislation prevents ‘incommers’ taking the mick on benefits and the majority of ‘incommers’ work their socks off and make a positive contribution to the economy.

 

[johnduffell]

do you have the stats for that?

no but your post was 100% innuendo, I'll agree there are so many problems with this country and so many positive things, but I don't think 13 out of a million people are fraudsters is really going to win any awards for being anomalies.
I'd rather shine a light on the people in power than the people at the bottom. DM is not the only structure of power keeping the many in order by keeping us blaming each other.