Help with a difficult customer!

[Keyur Patel]

Hello there my fellow electrician.
Need some advice about a customer who is being very difficult and annoying.
I was called out by the customer who got my number from the Niceic website for a fault in his kitchen. Cutting the long story short! His flat was a mess with many non Compliance’s so advise the customer to have a EICR done whilst we fix the fault in the kitchen. Customer was happy to have one done as the last EICR Expired in 2016. Fixed the fault in kitchen and tested the property. Sent a invoice to customer but now wants the report first before any payment has been made as he wants to discuss all non compliance in detail! When I mean detail I mean every little thing like why a metal light switch should have a earth connected, what are the regs on it and to explain the regs to a person who has no clue in electric’s. In total he has 4 C1, 7 C2, 5 C3 and many FI’s our report shows where the problem is with pictures had a verbal discussion on the C1 but being very difficult and now annoying. I haven’t got that much time and Patience to go through the whole report as it can take all day! What would you guys do?
Any info or advice Would be much appreciated.
Thanks

P.s I’m no longer a trainee and a fully qualified electrician as my status at the top says I’m a trainee

 

[westward10]

Can you itemise all these C1 and 2 issues.

 

[Pauls0212]

what were the 4 c1's, out of interest
ha beaten to it

 

[James]

I would send a copy of the report watermarked “draft” and with no signature.
with it a final demand for payment within 7 days.

 

[Keyur Patel]

Can you itemise all these C1 and 2 issues.

Just to list the Some C1 and C2
Blank’s missing in Cu exposed live part’s
Cooker isolator not fixed properly to a point you can see the wires.
No SWA glands on external garage light and only two core’s used! The SWA was fixed to a metal staircase!
Metallic light fixtures was live on ceiling!
No gas or water bonding found!
All the earths cut off in metallic light switch’s

The point of my discussion was that what would you guys do if he’s refusing to pay unless he is educated on the regs in detail so he can take a decision whether to pay or not! How would you approach the customer on this?

 

[James]

Send him the draft report and a copy invoice.
keep it professional

a little free advice is good for a customer relation development

but if you are in the middle of falling out with them anyway, just stick to the basics.
i.e. The details of the works required will be in the quote for remedial work if you ask me for it.
however the invoice for the test must be sorted out first.

 

[Vortigern]

Don't know what you charged but I would write this one off. No way would I spend precious time trying to explain intracacies of the nature of the electrical characteristics of my findings. If the client does not "get" what a live fitting means then....nvm.
I would quote for the remedials and then I would consider explaining as I go along. There would be a premium though for my time doing so. But to me it seems you have one of those customers where it is best to cut off before it costs you more. Anyway regards the bill I would give notice as above to pay then hand it over to a debt collection agency in the event they don't pay. For a couple of hundred pounds, just move on and make up the loss with people who are legitimate.

 

[Keyur Patel]

Send him the draft report and a copy invoice.
keep it professional

a little free advice is good for a customer relation development

but if you are in the middle of falling out with them anyway, just stick to the basics.
i.e. The details of the works required will be in the quote for remedial work if you ask me for it.
however the invoice for the test must be sorted out first.

Thanks for the advice

 

[Keyur Patel]

Don't know what you charged but I would write this one off. No way would I spend precious time trying to explain intracacies of the nature of the electrical characteristics of my findings. If the client does not "get" what a live fitting means then....nvm.
I would quote for the remedials and then I would consider explaining as I go along. There would be a premium though for my time doing so. But to me it seems you have one of those customers where it is best to cut off before it costs you more. Anyway regards the bill I would give notice as above to pay then hand it over to a debt collection agency in the event they don't pay. For a couple of hundred pounds, just move on and make up the loss with people who are legitimate.

Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated

 

[James]

P.s. @Lou can remove the trainee badge if you ask her nicely!

 

[Keyur Patel]

P.s. @Lou can remove the trainee badge if you ask her nicely!

Thanks I will do

 

[buzzlightyear]

Me this what I would do if he has paid you for the fault then that's good, having the EICR done by you and the customer agreed then tell him you are going to invoice him for the work that is done and once paid you will forward the test certs.
If he does not play ball then you will start recovering the amount which is owed.
You don't need to hand over the test certs until payments is paid in full. The best way is to email him and comuacate that way no if on buts.

 

[Keyur Patel]

Me this what I would do if he has paid you for the fault then that's good, having the EICR done by you and the customer agreed then tell him you are going to invoice him for the work that is done and once paid you will forward the test certs.
If he does not play ball then you will start recovering the amount which is owed.
You don't need to hand over the test certs until payments is paid in full. The best way is to email him and comuacate that way no if on buts.

Funny thing is he hasn’t paid for the fault as it was done together and on one invoice!

 

[OnlQQker]

Final Warning Letter Before Legal Action

... Read more

www.docformats.com

 

[Risteard]

Don't know what you charged but I would write this one off. No way would I spend precious time trying to explain intracacies of the nature of the electrical characteristics of my findings. If the client does not "get" what a live fitting means then....nvm.
I would quote for the remedials and then I would consider explaining as I go along. There would be a premium though for my time doing so. But to me it seems you have one of those customers where it is best to cut off before it costs you more. Anyway regards the bill I would give notice as above to pay then hand it over to a debt collection agency in the event they don't pay. For a couple of hundred pounds, just move on and make up the loss with people who are legitimate.

I wouldn't write if off. I wouldn't spend time explaining intricacies either until paid, although I would of course list suggested remedial actions but only once paid in full.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I would forward BPG4 to the customer, with a friendly note saying that the document should be sufficient explanation of faults and coding, for a layperson. Further explanation of the complicated subject of electrical testing and inspection isn't included in the EICR service, but can be provided at my hourly rate, of course assuming existing invoices having already been settled.

Some customers just love to waste your time, they'll happily spend an hour bending your ear about a 2 hour job.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

https://www.----------------------------/media/2149/bpg4-1.pdf

 

[buzzlightyear]

Funny thing is he hasn’t paid for the fault as it was done together and on one invoice!

This answer for above, fault first, EICR after, and go on from there.

 

[littlespark]

Dont let it go.

If you’re in the right, and they are not paying, then they have stolen time off you.
Final demands, and a solicitor letter usually does it.

Don’t come over as the soft git that will let a couple hundred slide. Word will get out.

I’m still waiting for a £300 bill from about 4 years ago. I won the case, customers wages were to be arrested… she changed jobs… covid hit….. back to the courts to get wages arrested from new employer…. She’s paying £300 plus all my solicitors fees.

 

[LukeD]

If everyone had to sit and discuss faults on EICR's with customers that are clueless and have zero respect for your time etc .We would all be out of work. Its simple....you wont want to do any more work for him. You have done what was asked . He owes you for it .mention that you can charge him £x per hour cash paid every hour on the dot to educate him to their hearts content .

 

[Eddy Currents]

I’m still waiting for a £300 bill from about 4 years ago. I won the case, customers wages were to be arrested… she changed jobs… covid hit….. back to the courts to get wages arrested from new employer…. She’s paying £300 plus all my solicitors fees.

If it was a commercial business you can also charge for a late payment fee of £40+ statutory interest at 8% + Bank of England base rate

 

[littlespark]

If it was a commercial business you can also charge for a late payment fee of £40+ statutory interest at 8% + Bank of England base rate

It wasn’t. Was private customer. Was asked to finish off someone else’s work because “they couldn’t get hold of him now”
Turns out I was third in queue for receiving money through wages arrestment. They’ve not been paying anyone.
Since she changed jobs, I believe I’ve jumped the queue, because I know where she now works.
Scottish legal system. I don’t think we can employ debt collectors, and it’s certainly not as easy as “Can’t Pay, Won’t Pay” on TV.

 

[Vortigern]

The problem with pursuing money is it takes time. Let's say you put in the bill and wait a couple of weeks, no money forthcoming. Take time to remind the customer of outstanding. wait again, rinse and repeat. Thats an hour or more of your time. Next stage give formal notice. Form letter and send, another hour. Maybe a couple of phone calls, more time and call cost. Ok off to debt collection agency, another couple of hours. Client refutes bill and cites his perceived shortcomings, back to you to refute/agree? Before you know it you have lost a days work/wages pursuing a bill. In one day £300 is not uncommon maybe £400 if the wind is with me. I am not going to lose a days work for a paltry debt. I can make up that loss by not engaging and working instead. Just my view on the matter. Mind you, in over forty years there has only been a few rare incidents that get complex like this so I have been fortunate.

 

[swaRRR]

The problem with pursuing money is it takes time. Let's say you put in the bill and wait a couple of weeks, no money forthcoming. Take time to remind the customer of outstanding. wait again, rinse and repeat. Thats an hour or more of your time. Next stage give formal notice. Form letter and send, another hour. Maybe a couple of phone calls, more time and call cost. Ok off to debt collection agency, another couple of hours. Client refutes bill and cites his perceived shortcomings, back to you to refute/agree? Before you know it you have lost a days work/wages pursuing a bill. In one day £300 is not uncommon maybe £400 if the wind is with me. I am not going to lose a days work for a paltry debt. I can make up that loss by not engaging and working instead. Just my view on the matter. Mind you, in over forty years there has only been a few rare incidents that get complex like this so I have been fortunate.

It doesn't take an hour to send an email. Letting this go just lets scummy clients get away with it. I always take payment there and then for anything up to £500 and for anything over, it's 30% up front the rest within 14 days.

The first sniff of no payment is legal action.

OP, you've not been paid to explain the regs to someone. An EICR is the service, it doesn't matter what the outcome of it is, the actual act of carrying out the EICR is what they are paying for. You've carried it out, so now they have to pay.

Other people say otherwise but imo the cert and the findings within are your property until the client has paid for them. So i would withhold the information until i've been paid.

Explain that to them - they've paid for the EICR irrespective of outcome. They are under no obligation to employ you for the works, you've just put them down for reference.

I don't do EICR's but aren't i right in thinking if you found several C1's you should have de-energised the property?

When i do start doing them i'll be explaining up front that the EICR is the service they're paying for and the results are immaterial - they have to pay upon completion of the service and then they will get the certificate detailing the outcome. I mean really, with the amount of customers who moan about them both in real life and on here, i'll just be charging up front for them. Don't pay, i won't do it. Simple.

 

[plugsandsparks]

I know as i write this i am setting myself up for a fail, lol (touchwood)- but this has been my philosophy in 12 years of running my own Ltd Co and 15 years of running businesses inside a PLC.

1. Choose your customers carefully, for Companies i used credit referencing in the early days, for domestic (very small amount) usually referrals from other clients.
2. Use spider senses during the job, any sign of an issue deal with it there and then
3. Taking over an un-finished job is a major flag, but i have done it, start a very small amount first , then invoice to see if payments have been the issue.
4. Prompt payers jump my work queue
5. Clients i have to chase for payment, very rarely now, go to the back.
6. Difficult clients get dropped altogether, this may be more to do with working practices, than payment, you will know if a client is difficult, lol

Remember as soon as you answer the phone its your time and its your credit you are giving, if you leave the house to quote, its credit ! , if you start the job without payment, its credit etc etc - In other words recognise that your are giving credit and recognise it as such.

Don't get me wrong, my terms are full payment on completion of job within 30days of invoice, i do occasionally request large material payments be made when the goods land on clients premises and very occasionally i request payment for materials prior to order, however this is rare.

In 12 years the only bad debt has been £90 inc VAT - Its was one of these cold calls from middle men to attend a fault at the clients premises. I agreed to go, fully expecting not to be paid by said middleman, met the client, explained before i started work that i am not expecting to be paid, he agreed to pay me if the middleman did not. I appreciated the offer, but did not take it up. I diagnosed a faulty pump which was going to be circa £500, agreed with client to cut out the middleman and this client has been one of my best for years, since. Invoice middleman for £90, Chased up the original call out from middleman as they had charged client £180 via credit card, got fobbed off, ha ha. Shortly after, middleman went into voluntary liquidation, the administrator included me as a creditor, lol and i got my hands on the total list of creditors, it was so sad to see so many other trades were down many thousands of pounds. I dodged a bullet, treated it as marketing as they did at least introduce me to a very good client.... lol

 

[littlespark]

I just want to add, there's nothing wrong with explaining to a client exactly what's needed. An EICR can be confusing to the general public.

If theyre going to take this information and try to fix things themselves, then that's not so good.

Its also prudent to explain beforehand that an EICR is just the report... any repairs are charged afterwards.

Some customers can be surprised how long it takes to complete an EICR. You can be there best part of a morning sometimes... and the condition of the house can impact the time taken.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Something else to add:

Some customers are wary of the trades, especially so if they've had problems in the past. They've probably seen those 'tradesmen from hell' programs on the TV too, that reinforces their preconceptions. It may be that the excessive quizzing of every detail is just because of these suspicions.

That doesn't give them the right to be a PITA of course, but it's worth bearing in mind when dealing with them. I would keep things friendly and professional as best you can, even if you don't feel it!

 

[buzzlightyear]

I need to sort out my contract from now on to the customers, saying if this payment not paid in full there is a bounty on your head.

 

[littlespark]

I need to sort out my contract from now on to the customers, saying if this payment not paid in full there is a bounty on your head.

I prefer a snickers

 

[LukeD]

many small business people fail or suffer badly NOT from been bad at their work etc .But from been POOR in communication . Clients need to know all costs up front and need to respond that they are aware and accept them etc

 

[Diddy]

Your customer does sound like they have potential to be a pain. BUT - If I have an mot id be a bit miffed to find a report written like our one is. Tyres c3 Emissions FI and all sorts of technical terms. Plain english is best for all concerned. I did look at some software a few years back that actually populates an explanation in the notes section to each and every c1,c2,c3 you put in. Even if it is simply a reg number then you can point to the current regs book (Give em an amazon link) and if a customer really wants to they can then read that regs book at their leisure lol .
The above scenario in op's case would have enabled him to say "Job done" to customer and proceed to payment. As soon as client asked for more info you just point them to the notes and let them cross reference whatever hey want.
It would also (if using that software i cant remember lol) add no time to the job in hand (an eicr).

Having said all of the above Id send the report in full and then chase for payment for work done including the eicr. Based on my judgement I may even decline to price for remedials. There is a fellow on one of the uk electrical pages on facebook who is basically a bona fide debt collector who chases problem clients with letters and phone calls and even court if need be and his fee's are lumped onto the clients bill. He seems to have a good success rate as a lot of the time it isn't can't pay it's wont pay and faced with a CCJ a lot of them pay up.

In 30 years the only debt i let go was £130 when i found out through friends of friends that the nice chap was infact a fairly big coke dealer and it was "best" to let it go. He eventually went down for about 8 years (served) and when he come out he got shot in his cab office. I was best well out of it for what was probably half a days work way back then.

 

[pc1966]

Without reading other folk's replies in detail, don't waste your time going through the regs, send him a link or copy of the free Best Practice Guide '#4 as it is reasonably readable and should satisfy them you did not make it up:

https://www.----------------------------/professional-resources/best-practice-guides/

 

[baldelectrician]

Dont let it go.

If you’re in the right, and they are not paying, then they have stolen time off you.
Final demands, and a solicitor letter usually does it.

Don’t come over as the soft git that will let a couple hundred slide. Word will get out.

I’m still waiting for a £300 bill from about 4 years ago. I won the case, customers wages were to be arrested… she changed jobs… covid hit….. back to the courts to get wages arrested from new employer…. She’s paying £300 plus all my solicitors fees.

I would have been inclined to put a charge on her house- you will get the money back eventually but it will cost her wellmore than £300 for a lawyer to remove the inhibition and it will hold up the house sale.
The £300 will also grow at 8% (statutory interest)

Yes, I am petty.

 

[baldelectrician]

Hello there my fellow electrician.
Need some advice about a customer who is being very difficult and annoying.
I was called out by the customer who got my number from the Niceic website for a fault in his kitchen. Cutting the long story short! His flat was a mess with many non Compliance’s so advise the customer to have a EICR done whilst we fix the fault in the kitchen. Customer was happy to have one done as the last EICR Expired in 2016. Fixed the fault in kitchen and tested the property. Sent a invoice to customer but now wants the report first before any payment has been made as he wants to discuss all non compliance in detail! When I mean detail I mean every little thing like why a metal light switch should have a earth connected, what are the regs on it and to explain the regs to a person who has no clue in electric’s. In total he has 4 C1, 7 C2, 5 C3 and many FI’s our report shows where the problem is with pictures had a verbal discussion on the C1 but being very difficult and now annoying. I haven’t got that much time and Patience to go through the whole report as it can take all day! What would you guys do?
Any info or advice Would be much appreciated.
Thanks

P.s I’m no longer a trainee and a fully qualified electrician as my status at the top says I’m a trainee

Make sure you are extremely polite and send him an electrical danger notification.

Inform him you are oblijed to do this to make him aware of the seriosbess of the install and these documents are classed as matrerial information for insurance purposes

 

[buzzlightyear]

Inform him you are oblijed to do this to make him aware of the seriosbess of the install and these documents are classed as matrerial information for insurance purposes

Where you on buckfast when you typed in
That or do you need glasses for buckfast
Specsavers are good for the eyeballs.

 

[baldelectrician]

Where you on buckfast when you typed in
That or do you need glasses for buckfast
Specsavers are good for the eyeballs.

Yep, I need specs- was trying to multi task and failed miserably. Hope the OP got the jist

 

[nicebutdim]

I would have been inclined to put a charge on her house- you will get the money back eventually but it will cost her wellmore than £300 for a lawyer to remove the inhibition and it will hold up the house sale.
The £300 will also grow at 8% (statutory interest)

Yes, I am petty.

My sister's ex father in law took this approach. Usual requests for payment, but no messing about with bad debtors - straight to having a lean placed on property. He wasn't short of money and saw no reason to waste time with a process that might result in debts being paid in small amounts each month (we don't have the option of baliffs in NI), so he was happy to play the long game - sooner or later they'd want to do something with the property which would be problematic due to that charge and would leave no option other than to clear it.