Immersion heater regulator

[solarfred]

I have been using a CT based kit using clamps on both PV and house supply cable to get net generated power which is then diverted to any of 3 programmed sockets which can be attached to any appliance up to 16amps each. So only spare PV is used over and above house demand. Device will then control sockets and anything connected to them via RF so no cabling to worry about. If power is positive light will be green or if negative a red light and sound alarm will alert user if set. Obviously immersions can be connected. The device will be programmed to monitor each connected (can be 12 in all) socket and will know the power demand of each socket/connected device. All sockets can be remotely controlled from monitor panel. The 3 programmed sockets will be controlled and activated providing three parameters are met:
1. Level of power switching - set the margin of spare power before device is switched on from 0 watts to max KW.
2. Operating time - set to only begin working after daylight to dusk when PV is operational.
3. Time delay - set delay before the socket is switched on or off so if there is temporary interruption to PV supply it will not switch everything off (eg. passing clouds). Can be set from 0 mins in 1 minute intervals so maximum potential import time is 1 minute if the delay is used. Or can just use instant switching.
Each programmed socket will switch on/off in turn so sequence will be ON = 1,2,3 OFF= 3,2,1 so prioritise which devices get the power first.
All information is stored and can be connected to PC for data download and remote control of devices.
Lot's of testing with CT clamps using a basic energy monitor on the incomer to check readings. I discovered the energy monitor never goes to zero which it should if the PV is rising and the import is falling?? Around 300-400 watts the accuracy goes using CT on incomer only. The CT's on the PV supply and house demand are spot on.
I tried the trick of reversing the PV supply cable through the same CT with house supply in CU and it does seem to work! My CT is exactly the same as the one shown above for basic current monitoring AFAIK. and is also used on many simple energy monitors. It is not "clever". EMMA uses directional CT's but not sure how/why they make a difference if you are measuring one way only?

 

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[Worcester]

To get true power / energy (diiferent of course) readings you need to monitor the voltage and phase angle, doing it that way you only need on CT on the incoming, (just like normal ct based import / export consumption meters do)
The Immersun product -see the Sunlounge for pricing - someone has 'outed' it there is now the best value fully proportional control system with overide timers, boost control and supporting multiple devices available on the market place, I still think there is need for a price drop to come (it will happen over the next 12 months) as volumes and competition increases.

'Cheap' DIY solutions are fine, however the people that would really benefit don't have the skills to build them these themselves, or to make them electrically safe, they need an off the shelf solution that any competent electrician can install.

 

[jbella]

Lot's of testing with CT clamps using a basic energy monitor on the incomer to check readings. I discovered the energy monitor never goes to zero which it should if the PV is rising and the import is falling?? Around 300-400 watts the accuracy goes using CT on incomer only. The CT's on the PV supply and house demand are spot on.

Hi solarfred,

it looks like I have identical settings (controller & monitor) and observations too. I believe to Worcester "To get true power / energy (different of course) readings you need to monitor the voltage and phase angle" but I can confirm that CT clamps using a basic energy monitor on the incomer never goes to zero - see the green line in my "test" Juraj-temp 2.850kW | Live Output monitoring. It matches perfectly to consumption (red line) when there is no any PV output.
Obviously my "real" PV system and consumption is Juraj'sPV 2.850kW | Live Output
So far I am only testing my Sailwider energy controller (looks identical to yours) with oil radiators and happy with its performance. In my opinion there is no any proportional controller ready for me (at least for now) - off the shell and reasonably priced.

Juraj

 

[Worcester]

Hi Juraj,

I understand where you are coming from, most people don't have your technical skills and practical capability.

1) what do you consider reasonably priced ?
2) Did read my post on ROI bsed on actual minute readings showing the totals savings / earnings?

 

[danesol]

repost

This thread may be of interest;

http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...pv-immersion-heater-proportional-control.html

 

[jbella]

Hi Juraj,

I understand where you are coming from, most people don't have your technical skills and practical capability.

Hi,

working in research I am suppose to have some capabilities

1) what do you consider reasonably priced ?

1.) I've bought my Sailwider energy controller Solarcontrol | eBay for 150 quid.
It's not proportional controller but if you read solarfred post (unit is exactly the same as mine) http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...-immersion-heater-regulator-2.html#post565752 it's quite advanced and so far performing really well (you can see my PVOutput). Based on this I would expect proportional controller to be somewhere around £ 200 - 250.
Further more Engenza is offering their Beat the FIT Cuts: Solar now available day and night | Solar24 | Engensa for £ 250 for their customers. I believe that's proportional controller too.
I absolutely agree (I think it was you) that price will go down with new products emerging soon. I am not in rush.

2) Did read my post on ROI bsed on actual minute readings showing the totals savings / earnings?

2.)Yes I've read your post (anyhow reading all of them in threads related to controllers I am subscribe to) about ROI.
I do not have absolutely any doubt that proportional controller represents the best value for the money.
But (and there is always some but) for me (at least for the time being) is not all about the money:
a.) I am on the FIT tariff and I'm getting some pocket money for exporting so not feeling to use every watt.
b.) I would like to do my small bit and to be a little bit green. Basically I'm trying to balance my export and import.
But I may change my mind if my controller breaks down or I am fed-up by FIT and "government" continuously changing their mind
Anyhow I am interested in proportional controllers and keen to incorporate one (reasonably priced) into my system.
I do not have my immersion heater yet but my plumber is coming for a chat about installing small (50-80 l) one. The small one because we are just two of us and as far as I've understood I can directly connect them to the plug via my RF controlled socket.

Finally I am coming to the point I would contact you anyway. And also it looks like that this thread is somehow slipping out from the original question : immersion heater regulator.

Having my non - proportional controller I would like to control the load on my immersion heater. As I've already mentioned (and living in Scotland too) I am considering just an about 1.5 kW heating element but I still would like to have some control (based on weather forecast ) how much I am going to set it up that day.
I have seen there are several possibilities how to do it and I would like to ask you (or somebody else) to correct and comment my findings:

1.) step down transformers like this: 220v to 110v 1500W Step Down Voltage Converter Transformer Converts 1500 Watts | eBay
No installation - directly connect to the plug, safe,
but just two outputs (full and 1/4) and rather expensive.
Are they legal according UK regulations? Anything else?

2.) Power reducer (halves it) like : Immersion Heater Power Reducer | Solar Immersion Heater Switch
Probably it does need electrician to install it or is it DIY safe?
again just two outputs (full and 1/2) and relatively expensive although I believe their £ 49 is hugely exaggerated (just a diode?)
I doubt they are legal in UK. Correct?

3.) Adjustable Voltage Regulator like: inkFrog or 3000W Adjustable Volt 0-220V Voltage Regulator for Dimming Light Lamps Speed NEW | eBay
Seems be very easy and cheep but are they legal?
Are their any other issues with them?

4.)SSR relays like: N SSR 25A Solid State Relay 3-32V DC 24-380V AC Control | eBay
I am completely lost in here and may by messing up different things but they are always present in proportional controllers.
I would really need some explanation here!

Sorry for being a pain but I would really appreciate very much professional answer rather that some links to the forums I've already went through

Juraj

 

[Worcester]

As to wether 1, 2, or 3 are legal / safe, I can't comment

Item 4) SSR is the right way to do and there are two versions / methods

Burst fire, - 1 cycle on 4 off = 20% power 1 cycle on 9 off = 10% power to whatever value load you put on it.
Phase Angle (cross at zero volt) 1/5 of the phase = 20% power , 1/10 of the phase = 10% power (subject to the usual sine wave math - area under the curve stuff)

The model of SSR will usually do one or the other. For full details see the threads on the OpenEnergyMonitor forums abot immersion heater control.

From it's spec the engensa product does appear to be a proportional controlled device. If you can get a local sparks to quote to install, you should be simialrly pleased with cost of the Immersun product. (he's going to come to put the immersion in anyway..)

If you only have 1.5kW of power to spare, with the porportional units a 3kW immersion will run at 1.5kW.

 

[Scobo]

Hi jbella.
I have one of the power reducers fitted and its working fine.
Our immersion is now using around 1kw.

 

[madmurg]

check out the open energy forum, a low cost solar controller has now been completed and can be built for well under £40 it works using just one ct at the mains incomer and uses bust fire and zero crossing to control a 3kw immersion proportionally. all schematics and arduino code have been posted.

Mk2 PV Controller, with triac | OpenEnergyMonitor

 

[jbella]

Item 4) SSR is the right way to do and there are two versions / methods

Burst fire, - 1 cycle on 4 off = 20% power 1 cycle on 9 off = 10% power to whatever value load you put on it.
Phase Angle (cross at zero volt) 1/5 of the phase = 20% power , 1/10 of the phase = 10% power (subject to the usual sine wave math - area under the curve stuff)

The model of SSR will usually do one or the other. For full details see the threads on the OpenEnergyMonitor forums abot immersion heater control.

Hi,

thanks for explanation! Definitely it's more clearer to me now. I can see that there is a plenty of them. Basically one can control output voltage by varying the control signal. Correct? Is it possible to do it manually and are there some commercially ready to use devices?

Juraj

 

[Worcester]

Hi Juraj, you need a control circuit to do it, they usually rely on dc voltage. Yep commercially available ... That's the device that Immersun and Wooldridge use (full circle !!)
10PCV2425 - CRYDOM - SSR, 240VAC/25A 2-10VDC | Farnell United Kingdom
PSR-25 PHASE ANGLE POWER 25A ac CONTROL MODULE

or this - PR1-E (3KW) Single Phase (Enclosed, Panel mounted)

 

[Fronius]

Hi Juraj, you need a control circuit to do it, they usually rely on dc voltage. Yep commercially available ... That's the device that Immersun and Wooldridge use (full circle !!)
10PCV2425 - CRYDOM - SSR, 240VAC/25A 2-10VDC | Farnell United Kingdom
PSR-25 PHASE ANGLE POWER 25A ac CONTROL MODULE

or this - PR1-E (3KW) Single Phase (Enclosed, Panel mounted)

Or even this ...SSR Solid State Relay Volt Resistance Regulator SSR-25VA 25A 0-240VAC | eBay

A lot cheaper and the one I've got.

 

[Fronius]

Hi Juraj, you need a control circuit to do it, they usually rely on dc voltage. Yep commercially available ... That's the device that Immersun and Wooldridge use (full circle !!)
10PCV2425 - CRYDOM - SSR, 240VAC/25A 2-10VDC | Farnell United Kingdom
PSR-25 PHASE ANGLE POWER 25A ac CONTROL MODULE

or this - PR1-E (3KW) Single Phase (Enclosed, Panel mounted)

Or even this ............. AC to AC Single Phase Solid State Relay SSR-25AA 25A 80-380VAC / 24-480VAC | eBay

The one I've got and much cheaper.

 

[JoHuggett]

Hello Gents,

You could look at the immerSUN which modulates energy allowing virtually no export to the grid without drawing energy. I'll leave you all to have a look and perhaps contact for further information.