In defence of the short course trainee

[GMES]

Sparksburnout can i suggest you wind your neck in fella. Engineer54 is one of the most respected members here he also does a hell of a lot for other people ( he puts his money where is mouth is )
Also to the mods, we as members have been told and told to be nice and not belittle people yet sb is clearly belittleing ENG with some of his snide comments but seems to get away with it.
How does that work.

 

[Guest112]

This thread is one of the main reasons I barely come on here anymore, I thought this site was for electricians not for domestic installer trade ruining numpties, and like the above said why are we the ones who are policed on here, I've been banned before after an argument with one of the numpties and you mods sided with him. Can't you create a section on this site for all the numpties to congregate a DI section or something and keep them out of the real electrical threads?...

 

[imago]

To be honest, I think people just get too stressed about it as an issue. There's nothing anyone can do to change the current situation. Taking offence, getting personal and busting a blood vessel on the forum won't do anyone any good. Things will never go back to how they once were (with or without rose tinted spectacles) committees will be formed, polices put forward, organisations will be formed and folded.

The sun's out, and it's a long weekend to spend with family doing things that really matter.

 

[Engineer54]

To be honest, I think people just get too stressed about it as an issue. There's nothing anyone can do to change the current situation. Taking offence, getting personal and busting a blood vessel on the forum won't do anyone any good. Things will never go back to how they once were (with or without rose tinted spectacles) committees will be formed, polices put forward, organisations will be formed and folded.

The sun's out, and it's a long weekend to spend with family doing things that really matter.

And this is exactly the sort of attitude that has, and still continues to bring down our electrical industry. Maybe at the moment, nothings affecting you to any real degree, but it ''WILL'' sooner or later. Do you really need to be shafted at every turn, before you're remotely motivated into doing anything for yourself, or as a collective??

 

[imago]

And this is exactly the sort of attitude that has, and still continues to bring down our electrical industry. Maybe at the moment, nothings affecting you to any real degree, but it ''WILL'' sooner or later. Do you really need to be shafted at every turn, before you're remotely motivated into doing anything for yourself, or as a collective??

Whatever, you carry on winding yourself up and I'll carry on earning a living and enjoying doing so. Guess what, there's far more to life than the electrical industry, most of it of far greater importance.

As for the doom you so enjoy predicting for the industry and everyone in it, I very much doubt it will happen. Obviously that won't stop you and others running around like Henny Penny, but that's up to you. Just supposing it does all crumble, I won't be on a forum crying about it. I'll do something else to earn a living and carry on enjoying life.

I really can't see the upside to spending life stressing over how you or anyone else earns a living. I do my job to the best of my ability, I get paid and the world turns.

 

[GMES]

Whatever, you carry on winding yourself up and I'll carry on earning a living and enjoying doing so. Guess what, there's far more to life than the electrical industry, most of it of far greater importance.

As for the doom you so enjoy predicting for the industry and everyone in it, I very much doubt it will happen. Obviously that won't stop you and others running around like Henny Penny, but that's up to you. Just supposing it does all crumble, I won't be on a forum crying about it. I'll do something else to earn a living and carry on enjoying life.

I really can't see the upside to spending life stressing over how you or anyone else earns a living. I do my job to the best of my ability, I get paid and the world turns.

Not wanting to get in the middle of a Domestic here, but i think the thing that upsets Eng and other guys like him, is that he as dedicated is life to the " industry " and seen the way it and it's standards have declined must be soul destroying.
The industry used to be measured on a skillset that took decades to master and you prided yourself on the care and effort you applied to your craft. And now it is saturated by incompetent misguided fools who for themost part are only interested in making as much cash as fast as they can, and do not apply the same level of effort and pride .
Ps i know nothing of you so therfore am not judgeing you as a bad electrician this is just my perception of what the trade as become.

 

[sparksburnout]

I have every right to praise or criticise anything that goes on in the UK or anywhere else in the world come to that. Just the same as i can come and go to the UK as i please. At least if i ever did go back to the UK on a permanent basis, i can assure you i wouldn't be relying on the State to house and feed me!!

Well, actually you would be wrong, i take groups of selected students from a local Engineering College 3 times a fortnight for practical training mainly at the main contractors compound and on the project site....

What cheeses me off are those that can't see any further than the end of their noses!! Especially those that wish that they too were in a position to be able to live overseas in places like France/Spain/Portugal etc... Oh, and why shouldn't these Ex pats (which will be mainly retirees) go back to the UK if they so choose, if and when they are in need of a hip replacement, most if not ALL, would have been paying there NI stamps etc, over there working life, the same as i have. The above just smacks of jealousy on your part....

I see your another one, that thinks it's all down to the older folk to sort out the bloody mess you have allowed to be created. When i left the UK to work overseas, everything was pretty much tickerty boo!!! How about you getting off You're Arse and YOU doing something to sort it out!!

So what would you do then, throw all the "DI's" as you call them back onto the dole? And excuse me, but I think it is your generation that has left society in the mess that we both agree it is in. These guys are just trying to make a living by the only route they have available to them. Everyone know's they can't do it on a 5 week course, they need help, but they won't get it, will they? And then, like you say, everything will end up with yet another industry in ruins. The way this bunch of public school idiots are running the country, it's enough to make anyone want to leave it, but for me, I will stop here and make the best of it. Whatever you say, de-camping overseas will not help will it? And by the way I am not at all jealous, after having travelled the globe several times with work, I can assure you I have no wish to live anywhere else other than here. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I, if you don't reside here, you play no part. And like someone else has just said, the electrical industry is not the be-all and end-all, we are just sparky's for goodness sake, not brain surgeons. To get back to the roots of this thread, these "part P" guys need helping, not pulling down and criticising. Would any established sparky on here let one of them spend time with him??

 

[imago]

Not wanting to get in the middle of a Domestic here, but i think the thing that upsets Eng and other guys like him, is that he as dedicated is life to the " industry " and seen the way it and it's standards have declined must be soul destroying.
The industry used to be measured on a skillset that took decades to master and you prided yourself on the care and effort you applied to your craft. And now it is saturated by incompetent misguided fools who for themost part are only interested in making as much cash as fast as they can, and do not apply the same level of effort and pride .
Ps i know nothing of you so therfore am not judgeing you as a bad electrician this is just my perception of what the trade as become.

I do understand that, and someone with his experience, knowledge and skill within the trade will remain at the top of the game. I also understand that when something that you have dedicated your professional life to is despoiled it cuts deep. I also fully agree that spending a couple of days clipping T&E to a plywood wall doesn't make an electrician.

However, it's important to have some perspective on it. There are lots of things more important in life.

I'm sure I'm not the only one old enough to remember all the other times "the industry is knackered, you mark my words" and similar were said about the electrical industry and many others. '60s and '70s the unions were saying that people who weren't electricians changing lamps was taking jobs away. The pointless strikes and walkouts did that far more efficiently. Crash in the '80s and a massive reduction in apprentice numbers was another death knell apparently. Maggie and Scargill closing the mines caused loads of unemployment. The answer was retraining for redundant miners, some of whom did the 12 week short course and became electricians. Cue the 2end of the electrical industry" nonsense. Some of those short course guys are now experienced electricians of course and no doubt unhappy about people doing short courses and threatening 'their' industry.

Every time there's a major change people say it's the end. Every time without fail they've been wrong.

 

[Knobhead]

So what would you do then, throw all the "DI's" as you call them back onto the dole? And excuse me, but I think it is your generation that has left society in the mess that we both agree it is in. These guys are just trying to make a living by the only route they have available to them. Everyone know's they can't do it on a 5 week course, they need help, but they won't get it, will they? And then, like you say, everything will end up with yet another industry in ruins. The way this bunch of public school idiots are running the country, it's enough to make anyone want to leave it, but for me, I will stop here and make the best of it. Whatever you say, de-camping overseas will not help will it? And by the way I am not at all jealous, after having travelled the globe several times with work, I can assure you I have no wish to live anywhere else other than here. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I, if you don't reside here, you play no part. And like someone else has just said, the electrical industry is not the be-all and end-all, we are just sparky's for goodness sake, not brain surgeons. To get back to the roots of this thread, these "part P" guys need helping, not pulling down and criticising. Would any established sparky on here let one of them spend time with him??

The sooner there are classifications and registration of electricians the better.

Being purely industrial all my working life I’ve not really got involved in domestic, which as you may notice I try to steer clear of. Over the years I’ve only come across one domestic electrician successfully migrate to my side of the industry.

You say being an electrician isn’t brain surgery, maybe its not, some of it is very complex and diverse though. You go to work and it’s not a rewire at No. 7 Acacia Avenue which is just the same as No. 9 Acacia Avenue that you did last week.

You go in to work with a rough idea of what you’re supposed to be doing, not very often it turns out that way. We did try to plan work, it’s amazing how quick proactive becomes reactive as the plant falls apart.

Interviewing candidates for a position the first two things I would ask is can I see your indentures and what experience do you have? Not an unfair thing to ask when letting someone loose on dangerous and very expensive kit. Kit that if broken down is clocking up losses at the rate of £10,000’s per minute.

So if you’re happy to be a domestic installer, that’s up to you. But what happens if you’re asked to work outside your comfort zone? There’s no point going on a forum, no one will have a clue what you’re talking about.

I’ll quote E54 “you can’t defend the indefensible”.

 

[sparksburnout]

The sooner there are classifications and registration of electricians the better.

Being purely industrial all my working life I’ve not really got involved in domestic, which as you may notice I try to steer clear of. Over the years I’ve only come across one domestic electrician successfully migrate to my side of the industry.

You say being an electrician isn’t brain surgery, maybe its not, some of it is very complex and diverse though. You go to work and it’s not a rewire at No. 7 Acacia Avenue which is just the same as No. 9 Acacia Avenue that you did last week.

You go in to work with a rough idea of what you’re supposed to be doing, not very often it turns out that way. We did try to plan work, it’s amazing how quick proactive becomes reactive as the plant falls apart.

Interviewing candidates for a position the first two things I would ask is can I see your indentures and what experience do you have? Not an unfair thing to ask when letting someone loose on dangerous and very expensive kit. Kit that if broken down is clocking up losses at the rate of £10,000’s per minute.

So if you’re happy to be a domestic installer, that’s up to you. But what happens if you’re asked to work outside your comfort zone? There’s no point going on a forum, no one will have a clue what you’re talking about.

I’ll quote E54 “you can’t defend the indefensible”.

Yes Tony, you are 100% right, and as you say to work in the areas you do requires a hell of a lot of training and experience, but you won't get your average guy who only wants to work on Domestic stuff trying to will you? If they do they are idiots. The point is, these guys have no other way to get into the industry, so they either don't at all, and stack beans at Tesco or claim benefit, or they go down the "Lesser" electrician route if that's what you would classify them as. Or you could call them a Domestic Installer, and then everyone would take the mick out of them. Some of them will be good guys who know what they are doing. Personally I think if a particular guy has done his 5 week course and is let loose into the world, he will soon realise he is way short of what is needed and pack it in. I wonder if there are any statistics as to if anyone has ever been killed or injured by a "Part P" electrician?

 

[Knobhead]

What I find offensive is fast track DI’s seem to think they can trade as electricians.
They aren’t electricians and they never will be.

This is why I believe classification and registration is required, the same systems used in most countries. I also believe in the American system where any work is independently tested, verified and certified. Self certification was the worse move ever made simply because there are too many chancers out there.
I’m surprised the insurance companies haven’t stepped in and insisted on real qualifications. They have to pick up the tab when it goes wrong.

Like many others I studied for over four years. One year full time and three of a full day and two evenings a week. To this day I still use the theory and maths I was taught.

 

[sparksburnout]

What I find offensive is fast track DI’s seem to think they can trade as electricians.
They aren’t electricians and they never will be.

This is why I believe classification and registration is required, the same systems used in most countries. I also believe in the American system where any work is independently tested, verified and certified. Self certification was the worse move ever made simply because there are too many chancers out there.
I’m surprised the insurance companies haven’t stepped in and insisted on real qualifications. They have to pick up the tab when it goes wrong.

Like many others I studied for over four years. One year full time and three of a full day and two evenings a week. To this day I still use the theory and maths I was taught.

See, there you go again, "they arn't electricians and they never will be" - why not?? If they continue to study, learn from guys with more experience (given the chance), and become immersed in the industry, why can't they?? You older guys DO NOT have a god-given right to be the only ones in the world who can be called "electricians". Times are a changing, it's not a "noble" profession, its a job. You ain't a doctor, or a lawyer. Just move on

 

[trev]

So what about other jobs?
You cannot legally call yourself a hairdresser without a certain set of qualifications and experience. You cannot legally call yourself a solicitor without a certain set of qualifications and experience
A hairdresser with more legal status than us. If we screw up seriously, people die?
The Royal Academy Of Dance has a greater qualification requirement for it's teachers than the NIC do for DIs.
When did you last hear of anyone being killed at a dance class?

 

[sparksburnout]

So what about other jobs?
You cannot legally call yourself a hairdresser without a certain set of qualifications and experience. You cannot legally call yourself a solicitor without a certain set of qualifications and experience
A hairdresser with more legal status than us. If we screw up seriously, people die?
The Royal Academy Of Dance has a greater qualification requirement for it's teachers than the NIC do for DIs.
When did you last hear of anyone being killed at a dance class?

When did you last hear of anyone being killed by a part "P" sparky?

 

[trev]

When did you last hear of anyone being killed by a part "P" sparky?

Are you sure you want to go there?