Incorrectly filled out EICR and the law.

[dtec dave]

I have been to look at a job today (consumer unit change) having had a brief look at the existing set up I noticed that there was no earth cable coming up to the flat so I did a quick ZS test on a socket, it was showing 0.13 ohms. The only thing I think is that an earth has been taken off a socket from the downstairs flat. I then noticed that there was no earth going out on the lighting circuit and checked a switch where again there was no earth so I informed the customer that I couldn't do the CU change until this was sorted.
The customer then produced an EICR which was done in 2015 with no mention of the above earthing problems and the r1 r2 readings had been left blank on the test results page. She then told me she had only bought the flat in October and had decorated throughout so wasn't too impressed when I told her that in order to sort out the problems I would have to chase out the walls. She was asking me where she stood legally with the EICR as she could have had money knocked off the price of the flat if it needed rewiring. Anyone know where she stands legally? Cheers

 

[Aurai]

Supposing

It is poor workmanship worthy of complaint, customer might best be guided to the complaints procedure from the installer and then onto their Registration scheme. Insurance would come into this as opposed to legalities, I suggest. Regards

 

[ruston]

Was the EICR marked as satisfactory and were there any agreed limitations in it?
It is only a report and not a certificate.

 

[dtec dave]

Was the EICR marked as satisfactory and were there any agreed limitations in it?
It is only a report and not a certificate.

Yes..marked satisfactory..no limitations.

 

[ruston]

Nearly frightened to ask lol. Were the earthing arrangements ticked as present?

 

[dtec dave]

See pic

 

[ruston]

Oh dear , and is it correct and just not connected ?

 

[Octopus]

Who commissioned the EICR?

 

[dtec dave]

Oh dear , and is it correct and just not connected ?[/QUOT

Who commissioned the EICR?

The flat was previously owned by a letting company, they were the ones who commissioned it. They passed on the report with the sale of the flat.

 

[Octopus]

The flat was previously owned by a letting company, they were the ones who commissioned it. They passed on the report with the sale of the flat.

In which case I think the owner should be consulting their solicitor .....

And most letting agency EICR's are done on an absolute shoe string ...... so no real surprise then either.

 

[The Ghost]

Sounds like there is some missing info somewhere in that. I find it hard to believe the earth comes from another flat/socket. I suspect there is an earth somewhere. Maybe a parallel earth? I am surprised you did not quote her for rectification.
As to the legal position I think the term is caveat emptor, where the buyer must be wary, it is up to them to ensure such items are in order. Having bought the flat I guess the cost of persuing a case would be far greater than getting it fixed. Especially as there is little chance of getting anywhere with it. What level of survey did she have? Might be a case there???

 

[Strima]

Earthing possibly a parallel path through gas & water bonds?

 

[dtec dave]

Earthing possibly a parallel path through gas & water bonds?

In the ground floor flat the gas and water bonding are connected into the consumer unit.
The tails for the upstairs flat are taken off the ground floor cut out, there is no main earth going upstairs with the tails yet there is earth at the sockets.

 

[Tuttle]

In the ground floor flat the gas and water bonding are connected into the consumer unit.
The tails for the upstairs flat are taken off the ground floor cut out, there is no main earth going upstairs with the tails yet there is earth at the sockets.

Maybe there is a path to earth via the boiler cpc?

 

[dtec dave]

Maybe there is a path to earth via the boiler cpc?

There's a socket circuit and a oven circuit, when disconnected from the MET on the upstairs board I get the same reading off both CPCs

 

[elsparko]

we arent allowed to lift boards or move any heavy furniture for eicr's as per request of the landlords/letting agents

certainly wouldnt be ticking the box off if i hadnt found any though! lol

 

[dtec dave]

Earthing possibly a parallel path through gas & water bonds?

Maybe there is a path to earth via the boiler cpc?

Also when I disconnected the earth from the MET on the ground floor I lost earth upstairs

 

[Octopus]

Did you disconnect ALL the CPC's from the CU and do a Ze?

That said how many circuits are there?

 

[Octopus]

Also when I disconnected the earth from the MET on the ground floor I lost earth upstairs

What earth is this?

 

[dtec dave]

Did you disconnect ALL the CPC's from the CU and do a Ze?

That said how many circuits are there?

Yes..and got no reading as there is no main earth connected. I could only get a Ze reading between the CPCs and incoming L and N.

3 circuits connected

Lights sockets and oven

 

[mhar]

I had similar. an EICR stating TNCS when there was no earth (6,000 Ohms or so). The quoted Ze must have been taken either on a l&n two wire test or a l & both connected to n 3 wire test as it was the correct figure! Just to be absolutely certain that the earth conductor hadn't somehow been removed my son got permission to dismantle the cutout and was able to conirm that there never had been a pme connection.
The author of the periodic was not a scheme member so no joy there and trading standards couldn't have been less interested, however he did not want me to remove the earth from his own house.

 

[Octopus]

I had similar. an EICR stating TNCS when there was no earth (6,000 Ohms or so). The quoted Ze must have been taken either on a l&n two wire test or a l & both connected to n 3 wire test as it was the correct figure! Just to be absolutely certain that the earth conductor hadn't somehow been removed my son got permission to dismantle the cutout and was able to conirm that there never had been a pme connection.
The author of the periodic was not a scheme member so no joy there and trading standards couldn't have been less interested, however he did not want me to remove the earth from his own house.

The more complaints they get, the more interested they do get ....

 

[Ian1981]

The R1+R2 doesn’t necessarily need completing on a eicr as that is a requirement of initial verification confirming earth continuity before new work is put into service.
Doesn’t preclude its use of course If you want to carry out the test, but one of the ways to confirm earth continuity is a zs test.
You must remember that the installation is already in service.
I like to go round with a wander lead from the MET to test all exposed conductive parts as part of the eicr before completing a zs test.

 

[Des 56]

Can you clarify why she was told that the walls would have to be chased to rectify the problem?
I assume she had agreed to have the option of a lighting rewire ?

How are the tails from the cut out on the downstairs routed,are they buried or enclosed in conduit pipe and where is the meter?

 

[dtec dave]

Can you clarify why she was told that the walls would have to be chased to rectify the problem?
I assume she had agreed to have the option of a lighting rewire ?

How are the tails from the cut out on the downstairs routed,are they buried or enclosed in conduit pipe and where is the meter?

Can you clarify why she was told that the walls would have to be chased to rectify the problem?
I assume she had agreed to have the option of a lighting rewire ?

How are the tails from the cut out on the downstairs routed,are they buried or enclosed in conduit pipe and where is the meter?

I told her walls had to be chased as I couldn't do a CU change without CPCs in place on the lighting circuit.

Tails are fed from downstairs cut out in armoured cable, run surface through a cupboard, through some boxing in, then into a small electrical cupboard to another cut out with the meter.

 

[Des 56]

dave,have you read the guidance given in the link I have provided?,its why I used the word option in my post
https://www.----------------------------/mediafile/100126675/Best-Practice-Guide-1.pdf

What size is the armored cable and how is it terminated?