Inexperienced 'Electricians'

[Kiers1970]

I know everyone has to start somewhere, but it grinds my gears reading some of these posts, asking for help on completely straight forward problems that some guys come up against.

Not being funny, bit if you are working for yourself, you should know what to do, no post on this forum.

Imagine this scenario...

I know the lights arent working now Mr, Mrs. Doctor, Lord, Sir, etc, I'll search for a solution on the 'net tonight. Oh, and can you have payment ready for me tomorrow? .... hey do you have wifi, I'll bring my laptop..

 

[GLENNSPARK]

How much loft insulation resists the cold and keeps the house warm

Yep and if you run all the cables under it think how warm they will be and keeping the heat in....must be saving energy that one...:stuart:...lol.....

 

[sbrown2]

I must say that this forum has helped change my opinions of where this country is (and is going) in relation to training, experience, competence, skills and apprenticeships. I am from a industrial installation background but am currently attempting to brush up my skills to join one of the schemes (NAPIT) and at 42 I feel old as domestics aint my thing and I'm now sick of brushing up on Part P, F, L, water regs etc but I will do it.

But back to the point I am putting this effort in for one reason. The world has changed dramatically and its going to be broke for a while. I mentioned training and skills and a forum like this gives access to knowledge which can be turned into skills and competence with the correct aptitude. I don't know but I bet a site like this has seen a significant upturn in the past 4/5 years in line with the massive increase in the training uptake at the centers. As jobs are not a plenty we will continue to see masses of people gambleing on sites like these to help them get a footing in the trade. Just remember that these people who come out of these centers are, and hopefully I will get shot down, are no different to most of us who came out of our apprenticeships. You don't really start learning the job until you finish your apprenticeship in a lot of cases. It should not irk anybody on this site, just do not respond to the threads end of.
Reason I agree is I have been in multiskilled position for nine years and I look at some of the domestic questions and think, "I didn't know that".

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Going on a 6 week course and "gambling on sites like these"....then taking the advice they have gleened in here is all very well.....but as you mentioned gambling...and learning on the job, self employed maybe?...so gambling and learning on the job in/on peoples property? hmmm.........

 

[Engineer54]

As jobs are not a plenty we will continue to see masses of people gambleing on sites like these to help them get a footing in the trade. Just remember that these people who come out of these centers are, and hopefully I will get shot down, are no different to most of us who came out of our apprenticeships. You don't really start learning the job until you finish your apprenticeship in a lot of cases. It should not irk anybody on this site, just do not respond to the threads end of.
Reason I agree is I have been in multiskilled position for nine years and I look at some of the domestic questions and think, "I didn't know that".

You must have been indentured with a totally different company ethos, to that of my indenture company. I was expected to be able to undertake virtually any general electrical work by the time my papers were due!! In fact, the expectations of my working skills were expected to progress throughout my apprenticeship/training. They most certainly wouldn't have stood for an apprentice to start learning as he came out of his time....

Not saying that you don't stop learning and picking up things, once past your apprenticeship, ...But you dammed well should be Qualified, Competent, and within reason, ...on the job experienced.


How you can compare these guy's that have done a 5 week course, with absolutly no on the job experience or training, minimum qualifications etc i just don't know!! The difference is worlds apart!!...

 

[sbrown2]

You can disagree all you like masses and I mean masses of these guys "HAVE", but by Jan 12 will not, entered the trade and will function and grow. I suspect as more people become redundant they will enter the trades and even be prepared to go through the NVQ3. I see on this site, that the NVQ3 portfolio's seem limited.

Engineer I may have missed the point, in as much as I presume I was competent and qualified but very wet behind the ears and was no where near as competent as my peers. Whereas I presume these guys should have some life experience and some practical experience that they took into the short courses they have taken.
I am prepared to be converted on this issue!! and hopefully soon it won't be an issue with the introduction of the NVQ 3 (I think)

 

[kathwilcox]

IMO you are only ever going to be as good as your enthusiasm for the job and as good as the person that taught you, like terv1, i had a brilliant boss when i was training, didn't matter how many times you asked the same question, he would explain it until you got it, he would give me a job to do and i was my job from start to finish, design, install and testing, if there were any problems it was up to me to figure out what the problem was, nothing like being thrown in at the deep end.

problem with colleges are the kids straight out of school are getting there courses paid for, they really don't know what they want to do with there lives and are just there for the laugh or to be with there mates, ( with the small exception of some).

in the sort time i have been a spark, and with what i have learnt from my old bosses and work collegues i think i have a fairly good knowledge, and with fault finding work on the basis of its not going to beat me, as i want to find out what the problem is out of curiosity and for future reference, even if it does take a few hours, a few coffees and a few smokes, i will not be beaten.

nobody knows everything, which is also why we all have mobile phones to call someone that might as 2 heads are sometimes better than 1.

i think that there should be definite guidelines as to what qualifications are required to become a spark, not this training course or that one, and also if your a spark your a spark, if your a plumber your a plumber and if your a kitchen fitter stick to fitting kitchens.

basis knowledge is a must, and if you don't know that give up!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Well Kath....the thing is....this is my second year at college now and already i look around in the group i am in and i can see the ones who wont make it. A lot of the other guys seem interested and enthusiastic about it all...bit still cant get their heads around doing r1 r2 end IR testing etc....you watch em trying to null through the hinges on crocks ..or not even nulling out at all...then wondering why the values obtained seem high. The thing is...they were taught all this last year so either they are slow on the uptake or they havn`t got it in em....its all very basic stuff this n all...same thing with 2 way switching...allsorts.....now to me if you cant fathom stuff like this in year 1 then its a bit hopeless isn`t it and the college has drilled it into them from day 1. Now then....if they have had a year or more to learn this stuff and still dont get it then how is someone out of 1 of these 6 week "courses" going to perform? We see bad install nearly every day my boss n myself...the amount of times we have encountered recent work done with no evidence of earthing or bonding upgrades....failed Ze`s, poor connections, ignorance of safe zones etc...the list goes on and i reckon its either diy pete or a ot of the time a 6 week wonder "competent person".....competent person...my ar$e...:icon9:

 

[23dlp23]

hate the game not the players. We have all funded and generated this system

 

[1ManRiot]

I know everyone has to start somewhere, but it grinds my gears reading some of these posts, asking for help on completely straight forward problems that some guys come up against.

Not being funny, bit if you are working for yourself, you should know what to do, no post on this forum.

Imagine this scenario...

I know the lights arent working now Mr, Mrs. Doctor, Lord, Sir, etc, I'll search for a solution on the 'net tonight. Oh, and can you have payment ready for me tomorrow? .... hey do you have wifi, I'll bring my laptop..

Forgive my hostile response but I'm going at face value here as I've only just started my journey into the industry and have no idea what sort of routine or mundane things you refer to.

But to me, on here, it seems from the outside looking in, to be an 'old boys' club who seem to resent anyone who dares to ask anything because you didn't have the benefit of the internet in your day. **** electricians have been around for decades.

All industries have regulatory failings, that's just the way it goes unfortunately, but people need to start a career somewhere, so if it's the fault of garbage training providers then that's where the issue should be taken up, not by people wanting to better themselves/begin a career.

While I've been working, I've always been told that it's better to ask a question and be 100% sure than to have doubt, so if people asking a seemingly stupid question to you takes away that element of doubt and makes an otherwise problematic issue a simpler one, then so what?

Seriously, this board is fraught with people trying to out-do each other in picking faults rather than just help people.

 

[nick182]

I am a domestic installer who has many years experiance working alongside qualified electricians, some very good and some that I wouldnt let them in my house to wire a plug. I only carry out work that I know I am capable of doing and if unsure seek advise or bring in help. There are good and bad in all trades , qualified or not, but if you stop people from asking advice then you are only encouriging more of the bad workmanship and mistakes that can be dangerous, I thought this forum was here to help.

Thank You!

 

[nick182]

i guess we all have to ask ourselves. Are we apart of the problem.. or are we apart of the solution in regards to incompetency.

 

[njbromilow]

Forgive my hostile response but I'm going at face value here as I've only just started my journey into the industry and have no idea what sort of routine or mundane things you refer to.

But to me, on here, it seems from the outside looking in, to be an 'old boys' club who seem to resent anyone who dares to ask anything because you didn't have the benefit of the internet in your day. **** electricians have been around for decades.

All industries have regulatory failings, that's just the way it goes unfortunately, but people need to start a career somewhere, so if it's the fault of garbage training providers then that's where the issue should be taken up, not by people wanting to better themselves/begin a career.

While I've been working, I've always been told that it's better to ask a question and be 100% sure than to have doubt, so if people asking a seemingly stupid question to you takes away that element of doubt and makes an otherwise problematic issue a simpler one, then so what?

Seriously, this board is fraught with people trying to out-do each other in picking faults rather than just help people.

best quote so far lets just help each other out and stop getting on people back because there trying to better them self.

 

[sbrown2]

Well done! Got my assessment next week and I could do with asking questions but I would rather muddle through myself than put myself up for ridicule. Mainly because to do your assessments your work has to be in domestic settings, not comercial or industrial. I have found getting to grips with the quality manuals and approved documents has been challenging for me. I will muddle through and hope my non conformities are not to great.

 

[hercule]

The regulations are what they are and at the moment they say that you can apply to register with one of the schemes with just a 1 week course under your belt - and do 17th edition within a year. Obviously the assessment is when a full and thorough examination of your practical skills and your understanding of the regs takes place?

If people are entering the trade without the skills - and I'm talking about registered DI's who are playing by the rules - have they done anything wrong? Surley it is the schemes who need to tighten up and make their assessments more rigorous, instead of thinking of the £500 they get from each new person.

As far as the forum goes, I have seen some pretty odd questions from people who claim to have all the qualifications - my guess is most are either members of the public looking to do a spot of DIY or unregistered tradesmen - who knows? Basically if you don't like the look of it don;t answer it - no big deal, don't get wound up by it.

No one gets paid to answer questions on here - and the experience available on here is simply priceless, but my suggestion would be that if there is a really basic question and you do want to help then treat it like helping your kids with homework - don't just give the answer to the question but help with where to find it or how to think about it differently. Next time they have a similar problem they know how to figure it out themselves. I know this might sound patronising I might come across as a tw*t but its what I think would be more help.

I've written far too much, but one last thing - most of the public don't know or care about part p, or think 'it's my house I'll do what the &*%$ I like in it' when you can go into any DIY store in the country and buy everything you need to fit a new cu, rewire the house, install outdoor power etc, (not many in the trade buy from b&q so it must be diyers who buy them) there needs to be more information for the public - maybethis should come from the schemes - they should be doing more for their £500 a year for us.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The regulations are what they are and at the moment they say that you can apply to register with one of the schemes with just a 1 week course under your belt - and do 17th edition within a year. Obviously the assessment is when a full and thorough examination of your practical skills and your understanding of the regs takes place?

If people are entering the trade without the skills - and I'm talking about registered DI's who are playing by the rules - have they done anything wrong? Surley it is the schemes who need to tighten up and make their assessments more rigorous, instead of thinking of the £500 they get from each new person.

As far as the forum goes, I have seen some pretty odd questions from people who claim to have all the qualifications - my guess is most are either members of the public looking to do a spot of DIY or unregistered tradesmen - who knows? Basically if you don't like the look of it don;t answer it - no big deal, don't get wound up by it.

No one gets paid to answer questions on here - and the experience available on here is simply priceless, but my suggestion would be that if there is a really basic question and you do want to help then treat it like helping your kids with homework - don't just give the answer to the question but help with where to find it or how to think about it differently. Next time they have a similar problem they know how to figure it out themselves. I know this might sound patronising I might come across as a tw*t but its what I think would be more help.

I've written far too much, but one last thing - most of the public don't know or care about part p, or think 'it's my house I'll do what the &*%$ I like in it' when you can go into any DIY store in the country and buy everything you need to fit a new cu, rewire the house, install outdoor power etc, (not many in the trade buy from b&q so it must be diyers who buy them) there needs to be more information for the public - maybethis should come from the schemes - they should be doing more for their £500 a year for us.

OK but for christs sake...if posters asked questions worth asking...what I mean to say is "competent persons" should be able to just use their eyes and LOOK at the problem first and if it dont come to you straight away...then you have 5 mins and think about it then come back, decide on a course of action (safely of course)...then as I have said before....go to it as times cash after all. My only issue is with silly, stupid questions by folk who obviously should know better when the answer was staring em in the face all along....It was just a case of looking.....