Installing a new Cu - A Modest Proposal

[sparc]

I'm guessing many other domestic sparks find this is the most common situation they encounter when doing a distribution board upgrade -

The terrace or semi-D with a classic Wylex 6-way re-wireable fuse board ... with some additions gathered across the years.

I try to get somewhere upwards of £350 to replace a board like this with a 10-way dual RCD CU, including upgrading tails and main earth. Not included in price would be fixing any problems found during testing, installing main bonding if not already present, etc.

However, I'm finding in the current economic climate that more and more people baulk at paying ~£300 to replace a fuseboard - unless there is a very obvious and serious problem with it.

Given most people agree that - all other things being equal - an installation with a new consumer unit becomes a lot safer - shouldn't we be trying to find ways to encourage people to make the investment?

A fair part of the labour I charge goes into the testing part of the installation work. I figure I could lower my price to the customer if the testing could be simplified, and hence the amount of time required reduced.

So -my 'proposal' is a sort of 'CU install lite' - which checks a minimum set of test boxes - an RCD to be on all circuits, RCD tests, single IR test between L+N and earth, and Zs done for each circuit at all accessories - but that's it.

Any problems found with the installation - through the reduce test set or thrown up by an RCD trip, etc - would fall outside of the installation charge to customer, but would need to be highlighted in the usual way in the EIC.

I think this 'lite' installation could reduce overall installation and testing time for the average 3 bedroom house where there are no underlying problems with the wiring - possible making it a half-day activity.

In the majority of cases the resulting installation would be many times safer than before, and the reduced cost to the customer should encourage more people to make the change.

Okay, it's just an idea - shoot me down in flames!

 

[telectrix]

christ! looking at that pic., it's worth £300 just to sort out that rats' nest.

 

[Amp David]

I'd get ready with the fire extinguisher now mate. Think you're going to get it big time. LOL

 

[sparc]

Donning the asbestos trousers as we speak ....

 

[truckster]

I generally charge £300-£350 for a C/U change but make it very clear to the customer that faults etc will be charged at a day rate. They are paying for a change of c/u, not for sorting out all the crap work by other sparkies, builders, plumbers or their mate down the road.

That c/u in the pic is very familiar down here, not enough circuits jammed into it tho!

 

[markthespark]

What is the legal stance on testing after a CU change?

Ive read both arguments on here but i dont know which is correct.

Ive heard people say a EIC is issued for the work you have completed ie CU change, but how can just just test the CU?

Why should you have to issue an EIC for all the circuits in property as you never installed them?

Ive seen sparks change CU's and any faults found whilst testing they have just written them on the EIC and then its upto the customer if they want them sorted. Is this allowed?

Can someone clear this up please, im going for NIC DI soon so would like to get this cleared up.

Many thanks.

 

[1shortcircuit]

My standard rate is £350 on a fault free installation. Obviously common sense kicks in when there are far fewer or far more ways.

Whenever I see an older consumer unit I always "sow the seed" and recommend that whilst the existing unit MAY still be performing as intended when installed there are now far more sophisticated units available that considerably reduce the risk of electric shock/electrical fires. This method seems to sit far better with the clients because you have not told them that their existing unit is unsafe and that the property must be rewired.

 

[truckster]

I issue an EIC for the c/u and an EICR for the circuits. If any thing is obviously seriously dangerous I isolate the circuit and note it. The customer then decides what they want done. I'm covered!

 

[sparc]

When you change a CU you are required to do a FULL EIC - and it is notifiable work (to LBC).

The pricing for the work on changing the CU and certifying it most be clarified with the customer, to make sure any 'other' work - resulting from problems found during testing, etc - are clearly defined. Most sparks make it clear to customer that the price is only for installation of CU (and upgrades to tails, etc) - and not for fixing any problems they find in the installation when doing this.

My 'proposal' as no 'legal' status in the Regulations - doing what I suggest would not be complying with the Regulations. What I am suggesting is a debate on this, as the overall aim is to increase the number of homes with a newer, safer consumer unit.

 

[1shortcircuit]

By reducing costs and passing them on to the client you will in the long run still end up working for less money because their are still people out there that will undercut you.

If clients were educated more about safety in their homes many more MAY consider upgrading their consumer units, having said that far more would prefer not to and keep their fingers crossed that they do not fall victim.

 

[markthespark]

Ive just copied this from the BPG

10.2 In addition, as a minimum, the following tests should be carried out to the existing circuits connected to the replacement consumer unit.

- A continuity test of the protective conductor of each circuit, to the point of the accessory electrically furthest from the consumer unit and to each accessible exposed-conductive part.

-A continuity test of all ring final circuit conductors

-A measurement of the combined insulation resistance of all the circuits. The measurement need only be made between the line and neutral connected together and the protective conductor connected to the earthing arrangement.

-A test of polarity and a test to establish earth fault loop impedance (Zs) at each accessible socket outlet and at least one point or accessory in every other circuit, preferably the point or accessory electrically furthest from the consumer unit.

-RCD Tests

10.3 The EIC should identify in the comments section any potential dangers that exist with the reconnected circuits and other defects that exist in the reconnected circuits , and that the installation of the consumer unit has been carried out in accordance with the recommendations in this guide.


Does anyone just still to these tests? Theres no mention of R1+R2 tests? Just Continuity of protective conductors, ring continuity, Zs, LN-E insulation resistance and RCD test.

I was suprised to see it tells you to identify the problems on the EIC in the comments section. Ive seen alot of comments on here that suggest that YOU are responsible for any faults that are found?

 

[sparc]

Unfortunately, firewalshy, you are referencing the ESC best practice here. This is the same document that advises the electrician to persuade the customer that they should pay for a periodic inspection before the planned change of the consumer unit.

Yeah, right.

And if you can't persuade the customer you (the spark) should under take a 'Risk Assessment' - again no indication by the ESC as to who pays for this time, unless we're expected to provided it pro bono?

The purpose of this Risk Assessment - according to the ESC - is "..... advising the customer as to the level of risk that would exist on completion of the proposed work".

Which sounds reasonable, but note ESC also states: "A disclaimer does not absolve the installer from responsibility." Great!

Far from meeting its goals of making people safer, it's exactly these types of pronouncements from Ivory Tower theoreticians and policy wonks in the ESC that are creating the barriers to more consumer unit installations!

 

[imago]

I explain to the customer what I'm going to do and how much that will cost. I explain common problems which may be encountered (borowed neutral, broken ring, too many spurs, undersized conductors etc) and offer to carry out an EICR prior to changing the CU. Some want it, some roll the dice, and some don't want to proceed with the CU change. What I don't do is reduce either the price or the level of checks involved.

Evangelical electrician I am not, so I don't see it as either my moral or professional responsibilty to convert the world to RCD. I explain the benifits of a new CU, and the drawbacks of the older types then leave it to the customer to decide.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it brush it's teeth.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I'm guessing many other domestic sparks find this is the most common situation they encounter when doing a distribution board upgrade -

The terrace or semi-D with a classic Wylex 6-way re-wireable fuse board ... with some additions gathered across the years.

I try to get somewhere upwards of £350 to replace a board like this with a 10-way dual RCD CU, including upgrading tails and main earth. Not included in price would be fixing any problems found during testing, installing main bonding if not already present, etc.

However, I'm finding in the current economic climate that more and more people baulk at paying ~£300 to replace a fuseboard - unless there is a very obvious and serious problem with it.

Given most people agree that - all other things being equal - an installation with a new consumer unit becomes a lot safer - shouldn't we be trying to find ways to encourage people to make the investment?

A fair part of the labour I charge goes into the testing part of the installation work. I figure I could lower my price to the customer if the testing could be simplified, and hence the amount of time required reduced.

So -my 'proposal' is a sort of 'CU install lite' - which checks a minimum set of test boxes - an RCD to be on all circuits, RCD tests, single IR test between L+N and earth, and Zs done for each circuit at all accessories - but that's it.

Any problems found with the installation - through the reduce test set or thrown up by an RCD trip, etc - would fall outside of the installation charge to customer, but would need to be highlighted in the usual way in the EIC.

I think this 'lite' installation could reduce overall installation and testing time for the average 3 bedroom house where there are no underlying problems with the wiring - possible making it a half-day activity.

In the majority of cases the resulting installation would be many times safer than before, and the reduced cost to the customer should encourage more people to make the change.

Okay, it's just an idea - shoot me down in flames!



View attachment 12170

Agree completely.......Single IR test on entire install,RCDs, and Zs to furthest point of each circuit to confirm disconnection times....main bonding must be included though. IMO these tests coupled with a CU change are completely adequate where cost is an issue, with an EIC clearly stating the extent of work,inspection and testing.

 

[brman]

Ive just copied this from the BPG

10.2 In addition, as a minimum, the following tests should be carried out to the existing circuits connected to the replacement consumer unit.

- A continuity test of the protective conductor of each circuit, to the point of the accessory electrically furthest from the consumer unit and to each accessible exposed-conductive part.

-A continuity test of all ring final circuit conductors

-A measurement of the combined insulation resistance of all the circuits. The measurement need only be made between the line and neutral connected together and the protective conductor connected to the earthing arrangement.

-A test of polarity and a test to establish earth fault loop impedance (Zs) at each accessible socket outlet and at least one point or accessory in every other circuit, preferably the point or accessory electrically furthest from the consumer unit.

-RCD Tests

10.3 The EIC should identify in the comments section any potential dangers that exist with the reconnected circuits and other defects that exist in the reconnected circuits , and that the installation of the consumer unit has been carried out in accordance with the recommendations in this guide.


Does anyone just still to these tests? Theres no mention of R1+R2 tests? Just Continuity of protective conductors, ring continuity, Zs, LN-E insulation resistance and RCD test.

I was suprised to see it tells you to identify the problems on the EIC in the comments section. Ive seen alot of comments on here that suggest that YOU are responsible for any faults that are found?

Guys, aren't we getting a bit concerned about nothing here? The list from the ESC is basically a full test schedule barring the R1+R2 tests. When you sign off the EIC you are saying that what you have done meets the regs and and is safe. You are limited by the extent to just the CU change, not every socket and outlet on every circuit! However as you have changed all the protective devices you need to make sure they are suitable for the installation. Hence Zs, cpc continuity, ring continuity etc.

But you don't need to prove you don't have a spur on a spur or a socket next to the bath! So I see no need to do a full R1+R2 test, just as the ESC have suggested.

Or am I wrong?