Installing a new Cu - A Modest Proposal

[sparc]

I'm guessing many other domestic sparks find this is the most common situation they encounter when doing a distribution board upgrade -

The terrace or semi-D with a classic Wylex 6-way re-wireable fuse board ... with some additions gathered across the years.

I try to get somewhere upwards of £350 to replace a board like this with a 10-way dual RCD CU, including upgrading tails and main earth. Not included in price would be fixing any problems found during testing, installing main bonding if not already present, etc.

However, I'm finding in the current economic climate that more and more people baulk at paying ~£300 to replace a fuseboard - unless there is a very obvious and serious problem with it.

Given most people agree that - all other things being equal - an installation with a new consumer unit becomes a lot safer - shouldn't we be trying to find ways to encourage people to make the investment?

A fair part of the labour I charge goes into the testing part of the installation work. I figure I could lower my price to the customer if the testing could be simplified, and hence the amount of time required reduced.

So -my 'proposal' is a sort of 'CU install lite' - which checks a minimum set of test boxes - an RCD to be on all circuits, RCD tests, single IR test between L+N and earth, and Zs done for each circuit at all accessories - but that's it.

Any problems found with the installation - through the reduce test set or thrown up by an RCD trip, etc - would fall outside of the installation charge to customer, but would need to be highlighted in the usual way in the EIC.

I think this 'lite' installation could reduce overall installation and testing time for the average 3 bedroom house where there are no underlying problems with the wiring - possible making it a half-day activity.

In the majority of cases the resulting installation would be many times safer than before, and the reduced cost to the customer should encourage more people to make the change.

Okay, it's just an idea - shoot me down in flames!

 

[sparc]

Guys, aren't we getting a bit concerned about nothing here?

Probably / maybe ... but it's a useful debate to have as I know from my own personal experience that my 2391 training took the precautionary route - test everything and anything. That's fine on paper, but is time consuming and costly, as we've discussed. I've yet to see anything that states very specifically what should be tested with a CU change out - only various opinions and best practice guidance.

My problem with the ESC best practice is they haven't thought it through - If a customer is iffy about spend £300 on a new consumer unit, how are you to persuade them to fork out for a PIR/ condition report before you even start and - if they don't want to - ESC says you need to do a 'pre-survey' instead. If you look at what that entails then the question of time and cost comes up again.

The bottom line is that ESC best practice acts against encouraging people to upgrade to a dual RCD consumer unit - and that can only be a bad thing.

 

[brman]

Probably / maybe ... but it's a useful debate to have as I know from my own personal experience that my 2391 training took the precautionary route - test everything and anything. That's fine on paper, but is time consuming and costly, as we've discussed. I've yet to see anything that states very specifically what should be tested with a CU change out - only various opinions and best practice guidance.

My problem with the ESC best practice is they haven't thought it through - If a customer is iffy about spend £300 on a new consumer unit, how are you to persuade them to fork out for a PIR/ condition report before you even start and - if they don't want to - ESC says you need to do a 'pre-survey' instead. If you look at what that entails then the question of time and cost comes up again.

The bottom line is that ESC best practice acts against encouraging people to upgrade to a dual RCD consumer unit - and that can only be a bad thing.

Agreed, nothing wrong with a debate!

Yes, in some circumstances it discourages people. On the other hand, in other cases it encourages them to do something about their dodgy electrics beyond just assuming a fancy new CU will solve all their problems.

 

[Octopus]

Ok, he's my tuppence (of old money). Your goal is to charge £350.00 for a CU change including tails and main earth - my question is how long do you allow for the work?

1/2 day?
3/4 day?
1 day?
2 days?

Maybe we need to brush up on our sales techniques!

I came across this today:



Installed last year, no cert, no building certificate, no RCD's except the RCBO's for 2 circuits.

The best bit was a scribbled note saying that suspected dual suppply to the lighting circuits - which was true as I had to trun off 2 breakers to isolate the downstairs lighting circuit.

The icing on the cake - the insulation is falling off the cables!!

I do wonder sometimes.

 

[Farmelectrics]

done one myself recently no faults found thank god upgraded earths customer happy or so i thought paid me but couldnt help saying i wished i was £100 an hour decided to keep mouth shut smiled and left with my money

 

[Geordie Spark]

christ! looking at that pic., it's worth £300 just to sort out that rats' nest.

Are ye criticizing my work again???? :sad_smile:

 

[Midwest]

I came across this today:

View attachment 12175

no RCD's except the RCBO's for 2 circuits.

What are those two RCD's doing, shown in your picture?

 

[EastAnglian]

Agree completely.......Single IR test on entire install,RCDs, and Zs to furthest point of each circuit to confirm disconnection times....main bonding must be included though. IMO these tests coupled with a CU change are completely adequate where cost is an issue, with an EIC clearly stating the extent of work,inspection and testing.

I almost agree ..... I would add an end to end continuity test of all circuits claiming to be ring finals and a Zs check at ALL socket outlets. Any rings found not to be continuous would be the subject of additional work. While theoretically a Zs test at all sockets will allow you to deduce that the ring isn't continuous the reality of measuring sockets which have been in use for while means you get all sorts of readings which don't allow the text-book analysis to work!

 

[EastAnglian]

I came across this today:

View attachment 12175

Installed last year, no cert, no building certificate, no RCD's except the RCBO's for 2 circuits.

The best bit was a scribbled note saying that suspected dual suppply to the lighting circuits - which was true as I had to trun off 2 breakers to isolate the downstairs lighting circuit.

The icing on the cake - the insulation is falling off the cables!!

I do wonder sometimes.

Methinks you must have posted the wrong picture .... that MK board looks pretty standard to me!

 

[brman]

I almost agree ..... I would add an end to end continuity test of all circuits claiming to be ring finals and a Zs check at ALL socket outlets. Any rings found not to be continuous would be the subject of additional work. While theoretically a Zs test at all sockets will allow you to deduce that the ring isn't continuous the reality of measuring sockets which have been in use for while means you get all sorts of readings which don't allow the text-book analysis to work!

I am not disagreeing but want to understand you so what is your reason for doing a Zs on ALL sockets?

I guess what I am asking is, if you have done end to end continuity then the basic ring is ok so your Zs will be checking socket fronts/switches and spurs so how far would you go fixing things before signing off the CU? A socket Zs slightly higher than expected or only if it was greater than the 1667 needed to trip the RCD? (which obviously indicates a fault but still allows the new board to operate correctly)

 

[EastAnglian]

I am not disagreeing but want to understand you so what is your reason for doing a Zs on ALL sockets?

I guess what I am asking is, if you have done end to end continuity then the basic ring is ok so your Zs will be checking socket fronts/switches and spurs so how far would you go fixing things before signing off the CU? A socket Zs slightly higher than expected or only if it was greater than the 1667 needed to trip the RCD? (which obviously indicates a fault but still allows the new board to operate correctly)

I find the most common sort of DIY fault is an incorrectly wired socket outlet - perhaps a single to double conversion, a replacement or an added spur (illegal or legal!!). By testing each socket you will find those where the L&N is reversed (or worse) and (sometimes)where the CPC has been terminated on the back-box not the accessory, and maybe those where there might be a loose wire. And yes, I've come across all those faults, as I'm sure you have too.

Yes, this is beyond the scope of the CU change, but my philosophy is that I want to leave the house at least as safe as I found it, and ideally safer, so this is a little bit of "value add" which has become part of my regular service.

Like others here my 'standard' fee for a CU upgrade is £350 provided any upgrade to tails & earth is reasonably straight forward. On my quote I always make it clear that upgrade to main bonding if required is extra, and if I know from the pre-work survey its a pig to do I will do it the day before the CU change.

I never book another job the same day as a CU upgrade. If I get one done in 6 hours, complete with testing, then I get an early bath. More often its a full day's work.

 

[brman]

I find the most common sort of DIY fault is an incorrectly wired socket outlet - perhaps a single to double conversion, a replacement or an added spur (illegal or legal!!). By testing each socket you will find those where the L&N is reversed (or worse) and (sometimes)where the CPC has been terminated on the back-box not the accessory, and maybe those where there might be a loose wire. And yes, I've come across all those faults, as I'm sure you have too.

Yes, this is beyond the scope of the CU change, but my philosophy is that I want to leave the house at least as safe as I found it, and ideally safer, so this is a little bit of "value add" which has become part of my regular service.

Like others here my 'standard' fee for a CU upgrade is £350 provided any upgrade to tails & earth is reasonably straight forward. On my quote I always make it clear that upgrade to main bonding if required is extra, and if I know from the pre-work survey its a pig to do I will do it the day before the CU change.

I never book another job the same day as a CU upgrade. If I get one done in 6 hours, complete with testing, then I get an early bath. More often its a full day's work.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense to me. I know what you mean about the time problem. I'd love to be able to guarantee time for something else in the afternoon but I don't work that fast and there is always something that causes delays.

 

[Octopus]

Been doing an EICR today, a "full" one meaning I've tested each circuit individually for IR, each ring for continuity and each radial too.

One ring didn't have continuity on the neutral - I found the problem and fixed it.

I fear any attempts to cut out thorough testing will lead us down the path of more rushed, half done jobs, which will do the profession damage.

 

[Guitarist]

I am not disagreeing but want to understand you so what is your reason for doing a Zs on ALL sockets?

I guess what I am asking is, if you have done end to end continuity then the basic ring is ok so your Zs will be checking socket fronts/switches and spurs so how far would you go fixing things before signing off the CU? A socket Zs slightly higher than expected or only if it was greater than the 1667 needed to trip the RCD? (which obviously indicates a fault but still allows the new board to operate correctly)

That will only prove that there IS a ring, maybe within a ring. The main ring could be broken somewhere.