installing smart switches - upstairs/downstairs

[sinbrad]

Ok guys, first post so be gentle. I have a standard setup of two two way switches, one at the bottom of the stairs and one at the top so the light that they feed can be switched on/off from either switch.

What I want to do is replace these switches with smart switches. I have installed one switch, which seems to be from the main feed and it works. Now when I attempt to install the 2nd smart switch I am unable to get it to work as there is no indications on the switch to say it is getting power even though there is a live feed going to it.

If I reconnect the standard switch the standard switch will control on/off and so will the smart switch but I don't want this I want to have both smart switches in situ. The smart switches are the no neutral wire required type and need a capacitor installed to allow the switch to operate. The capacitor is installed at the light fitting which seems to be doing its job as the smart switch that is working seems to indicate this.

At the working end there is three sets of triple core coming into the switch box, two have red, black and green/yellow and the other is red, blue and yellow. Now I think I understand that one of the core is for the actual main feed, the other is the core to the light itself and the red, blue and yellow is what feeds the other switch.

If I connect the red and yellow only it will power the smart switch, the distant switch with the standard switch has the yellow and red connected, red to com and yellow to L1. The smart switch that is working has red to L and yellow to L1

No matter what I try I cannot get the 2nd smart switch to work?

Let me add that these smart switches will work when paired together but because I cannot get power to both at the same time I cannot pair them?



I have attached 2 photo's, one of each switch

 

[littlespark]

If there’s only 2 switches, then I’m guessing that the red/yellow/blue at both switches is the same cable.
One red/black is the live and neutral supply, and the other red/black is the switched live and neutral up to the light.

Please confirm, or I’m going to be following the wrong train of thought.

Also let us know the make and model of the smart switches. Wiring diagram?

 

[sinbrad]

If there’s only 2 switches, then I’m guessing that the red/yellow/blue at both switches is the same cable.
One red/black is the live and neutral supply, and the other red/black is the switched live and neutral up to the light.

Please confirm, or I’m going to be following the wrong train of thought.

Also let us know the make and model of the smart switches. Wiring diagram?

Yes, you are correct in all assumptions. Funnily enough the smart switch doesn't have a make but it's listed in the ewelink android app as device819463. Wiring diagram as below

 

[Avo Mk8]

I was under the impression that many smart switches do not support being hard wired for 2-way operation.
I thought the way to achieve it was to wire just one switch to operate the light, and then pair a second switch with the first, so when you operate the second switch it does the other half of the two-way operation. This is how you do it with Quinetic!

Your switch marking L1, L2, L3 etc are surely single pole connections to 'L', when you operate each switch.
I don't think there's any 'changeover' function analagous to traditional 2-way switching?

Of course I could be wrong

 

[sinbrad]

I was under the impression that many smart switches do not support being hard wired for 2-way operation.
I thought the way to achieve it was to wire just one switch to operate the light, and then pair a second switch with the first, so when you operate the second switch it does the other half of the two-way operation. This is how you do it with Quinetic!

Your switch marking L1, L2, L3 etc are surely single pole connections to 'L', when you operate each switch.
I don't think there's any 'changeover' function analagous to traditional 2-way switching?

Of course I could be wrong

You could be right and I would be more than happy to have them work as you describe but my problem is getting the power to the 2nd switch?

 

[Avo Mk8]

You could be right and I would be more than happy to have them work as you describe but my problem is getting the power to the 2nd switch?

Having got one smart switch working at the end with all the cables, why not use a couple of the cores of that r/b/y cable to take permanent L and N to the second switch. L to the switch L, and the capacitor L1 to N. Hopefully that would power the second switch so you could pair them?

 

[littlespark]

The L1, L2 don’t mean the same on a smart switch as they do on a standard two-way

So if you have supply Red into L, and load red into L1, the bottom switch works as it should?
Now take the red of the 3 core into L and the yellow into L1 on both switches, so the two are in parallel. Ignore the blue. It’s not needed unless you need a neutral or a signal line

Unless the smart switches can be paired… this will not work. You would need both switches off to turn light off.

If they can be paired, (either by radio frequency or using the blue core as an extra low voltage signal line on some makes of switch) then turning the remote switch on or off sends an on or off code to the master switch and it follows the instruction, turning the light on or off accordingly.

Using a normal 2 way switch with one these needing a hard wired signal can send 230v back along the blue core, and basically frying the electronics as they’re only designed for 12v dc or something.

Smells a bit like fish.

 

[sinbrad]

The L1, L2 don’t mean the same on a smart switch as they do on a standard two-way

So if you have supply Red into L, and load red into L1, the bottom switch works as it should?
Now take the red of the 3 core into L and the yellow into L1 on both switches, so the two are in parallel. Ignore the blue. It’s not needed unless you need a neutral or a signal line

Unless the smart switches can be paired… this will not work. You would need both switches off to turn light off.

If they can be paired, (either by radio frequency or using the blue core as an extra low voltage signal line on some makes of switch) then turning the remote switch on or off sends an on or off code to the master switch and it follows the instruction, turning the light on or off accordingly.

Using a normal 2 way switch with one these needing a hard wired signal can send 230v back along the blue core, and basically frying the electronics as they’re only designed for 12v dc or something.

Smells a bit like fish.

The only wires connected in the standard setup are red/blue/yellow. With the red and yellow connected to the smart switch and at the distant end the red/blue/yellow connected to the standard switch and a capacitor in situ at the light fitting, it works. If I attempt to connect the 2nd smart switch with the available wires I get no power to either switch. It appears that the standard switch is only acting as a breaker and in the on position it supplies the power needed for the smart switch to work. I think that if I was to remove the standard switch and connect both red/yellow together it would have the same effect.
I need the power some how to reach the 2nd smart switch but with the way the cabling is at the moment I don't think that is possible unless I take apart all the wires that are connected via scotch blocks. I only have a single red connected to the smart switch which is to the L

 

[sinbrad]

Having got one smart switch working at the end with all the cables, why not use a couple of the cores of that r/b/y cable to take permanent L and N to the second switch. L to the switch L, and the capacitor L1 to N. Hopefully that would power the second switch so you could pair them?

There is no N on the back of the smart switch as it is a "No neutral needed" and works as there is a capacitor inline to provide the return power to the smart switch. The wiring diagram posted above seems to be the switch if you have an actual neutral wire in situ?

 

[sinbrad]

Ok guys, first post so be gentle. I have a standard setup of two two way switches, one at the bottom of the stairs and one at the top so the light that they feed can be switched on/off from either switch.

What I want to do is replace these switches with smart switches. I have installed one switch, which seems to be from the main feed and it works. Now when I attempt to install the 2nd smart switch I am unable to get it to work as there is no indications on the switch to say it is getting power even though there is a live feed going to it.

If I reconnect the standard switch the standard switch will control on/off and so will the smart switch but I don't want this I want to have both smart switches in situ. The smart switches are the no neutral wire required type and need a capacitor installed to allow the switch to operate. The capacitor is installed at the light fitting which seems to be doing its job as the smart switch that is working seems to indicate this.

At the working end there is three sets of triple core coming into the switch box, two have red, black and green/yellow and the other is red, blue and yellow. Now I think I understand that one of the core is for the actual main feed, the other is the core to the light itself and the red, blue and yellow is what feeds the other switch.

If I connect the red and yellow only it will power the smart switch, the distant switch with the standard switch has the yellow and red connected, red to com and yellow to L1. The smart switch that is working has red to L and yellow to L1

No matter what I try I cannot get the 2nd smart switch to work?

Let me add that these smart switches will work when paired together but because I cannot get power to both at the same time I cannot pair them?



I have attached 2 photo's, one of each switch

Ok, I've reversed the switches. So I now have the smart switch connected to the distant outlet, the one with only R/B/Y wires. I have connected the Y to L and the R to L1. When I have the standard switch selected to send power down the Y wire the smart switch will work as it should. So I have tested from both ends with smart/standard setup but if I once again try to have 2 smart switches in situ I have no power to either. So I need to probably take direct power to feed one of the other smart switches?
Remember guys, I ain't no electrician but I do have the basic understanding so you'll need to be patient

 

[Avo Mk8]

Can I just clarify how the basic on-off function works at the switch position with the black and red cables in choc blocks?
(put aside the r/y/b cable - don't need that, assuming it just goes between the boxes and nowhere else!)

What turns the light on and off? If you wire the two reds in the choc block across one of the original switches, does that switch the light?

Do you know if the black choc block is live, or neutral, or something else? Do you have a multimeter?

 

[sinbrad]

Can I just clarify how the basic on-off function works at the switch position with the black and red cables in choc blocks?
(put aside the r/y/b cable - don't need that, assuming it just goes between the boxes and nowhere else!)

What turns the light on and off? If you wire the two reds in the choc block across one of the original switches, does that switch the light?

Do you know if the black choc block is live, or neutral, or something else? Do you have a multimeter?

From what I can see the single red is the actual live feed coming from the fusebox, as when I use a volt tester it is the only wire that illuminates the tester.

The two red wires in the choc block are 1 for the r/y/b cable and the other red is going to the light.
I have disconnected the 1 red that goes to the light and have put that in L1 of the original switch, with the live red from fusebox to com and the light comes on when the switch is made

I will assume that the black wires are neutral

Slowly getting there

 

[sinbrad]

From what I can see the single red is the actual live feed coming from the fusebox, as when I use a volt tester it is the only wire that illuminates the tester.

The two red wires in the choc block are 1 for the r/y/b cable and the other red is going to the light.
I have disconnected the 1 red that goes to the light and have put that in L1 of the original switch, with the live red from fusebox to com and the light comes on when the switch is made

I will assume that the black wires are neutral

Slowly getting there

Well, I have now connected the wires that I have just connected to the original switch to the smart switch, Live from com to L on the smart switch and L1 from the original switch to L1 on the smart switch and the smart switch works manually and via the app.
I need to now figure out how to get the power to the 2nd switch?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Well, I have now connected the wires that I have just connected to the original switch to the smart switch, Live from com to L on the smart switch and L1 from the original switch to L1 on the smart switch and the smart switch works manually and via the app.
I need to now figure out how to get the power to the 2nd switch?

Brilliant. That's progress.
That's all you need as far as that smart switch is concerned.

What I believe you will need to do next is to use say the r/y/b cable to take permanent live (eg red) and neutral (eg blue - assuming the blacks are neutral!) to the other smart switch location.
I know the switch doesn't have a neutral connection - bear with me !

Then you connect the permanent live to second smart switch L, the smart switch capacitor to L1, and the other end of the capacitor to Neutral. That provides power to the second smart switch (I believe), and hopefully you can pair it with the first.

 

[sinbrad]

Brilliant. That's progress.
That's all you need as far as that smart switch is concerned.

What I believe you will need to do next is to use say the r/y/b cable to take permanent live (eg red) and neutral (eg blue - assuming the blacks are neutral!) to the other smart switch location.
I know the switch doesn't have a neutral connection - bear with me !

Then you connect the permanent live to second smart switch L, the smart switch capacitor to L1, and the other end of the capacitor to Neutral. That provides power to the second smart switch (I believe), and hopefully you can pair it with the first.

Ok, for the permanent live, will I take the feed from the L on the first smart switch or do I have to connect up another scotch block and then connect the two lives from that, one for current smart switch and the other for the other smart switch?

 

[littlespark]

If these smart switches cannot be "paired" together... no amount of experimenting with the cables is going to help.
They will simply act as two one way switches in parallel.
Either switch can turn the light on, but both need to be off for the light to be off.

 

[sinbrad]

If these smart switches cannot be "paired" together... no amount of experimenting with the cables is going to help.
They will simply act as two one way switches in parallel.
Either switch can turn the light on, but both need to be off for the light to be off.

The switches can be paired together, I just need to be able to power the 2nd smart switch. I don't want to be guessing at what cables I need to connect to provide power to the 2nd switch for it to work and then I can pair them together?

 

[Avo Mk8]

Ok, for the permanent live, will I take the feed from the L on the first smart switch or do I have to connect up another scotch block and then connect the two lives from that, one for current smart switch and the other for the other smart switch?

The initial way you describe above is the way I would do it.

 

[Avo Mk8]

The switches can be paired together, I just need to be able to power the 2nd smart switch. I don't want to be guessing at what cables I need to connect to provide power to the 2nd switch for it to work and then I can pair them together?

You have the right idea in my book. Having got 'L' to the second smart switch, you also need a neutral to it, to connect the other end of your virtual load to, namely the capacitor. I'm hoping your two blacks in the choc block are actually a neutral and that will work.

 

[Avo Mk8]

If these smart switches cannot be "paired" together... no amount of experimenting with the cables is going to help.
They will simply act as two one way switches in parallel.
Either switch can turn the light on, but both need to be off for the light to be off.

I agree with what you say, but the OP's objective is to power the second smart switch, not use its switch contacts in any way. It's via pairing that the functionality he needs will be obtained, and I think he got that some posts ago.

 

[sinbrad]

You have the right idea in my book. Having got 'L' to the second smart switch, you also need a neutral to it, to connect the other end of your virtual load to, namely the capacitor. I'm hoping your two blacks in the choc block are actually a neutral and that will work.

How do I know they are neutral?

 

[Avo Mk8]

How do I know they are neutral?

Test equipment. Multimeter? Continuity check (power off) between the black wires and relevant consumer unit neutral.
If your volt stick checker has never indicated a voltage on said wires during all your experimenting, I would say there's a good chance they are neutral. Much as nobody likes guesswork, it would be safe (because of the few mA current involved) to connect the capacitor to the black wires to check if the configuration does work.

 

[brianmoooore]

Almost definitely the two blacks in the fastfix box are neutrals. One T&E is L and N directly or indirectly from the CU, the other T&E is SwL and N to the lamp, and the 3&E is to the other switch.
Why do you need two smart switches to control one light? If it's a smart switch, surely it can be controlled from anywhere.

 

[sinbrad]

Almost definitely the two blacks in the fastfix box are neutrals. One T&E is L and N directly or indirectly from the CU, the other T&E is SwL and N to the lamp, and the 3&E is to the other switch.
Why do you need two smart switches to control one light? If it's a smart switch, surely it can be controlled from anywhere.

Yes, that is correct regarding the smart switches but there are people in the house that still want the manual element so there is still the requirement for two smart switches. Eventually all switches will be replaced with smart switches

 

[sinbrad]

Well, stumbled at the final hurdle. Got both smart switches powered up and paired to the smart life app but I am unable to pair them together as there is no setup guide to do this. I have reached out to the manufacturer but little hope there. On amazon it does state multi-way via smart life app but that's it, no instructions or anything included and a search on google etc throws up a blank. Oh well, it was an interesting project and thanks for all the input