UK Is an SPD required for a loft conversion?

[ionionascu]

Hi. We live in an older house and we are doing a loft conversion. We do not have an SPD on the connection to the grid and the builder's electricians insist that we must have one, otherwise he can't sign the certificate, but he doesn't want to give me a reason. We have a few consumer units under the stairs, next to the meter and I do not think there is enough space for him to do any changes now. I want to have an SPD installed, but not right now as we plan to do some other changes in the house soon and I do not think it is worth paying for something now just to have it changed in a few months. Can someone please tell me whether there is a legal requirement to install an SPD when doing a loft conversion? (the house is a semi-detached with a looped connection and the electrician didn't even have to connect a new loop to the consumer unit as this had alreay been done a few years ago when we had some other electrical work done in the house). Thank you

 

[mainline]

Say I have an SPD fitted at a cost of £250, then there is a thunderstorm nearby and then my £500 2 year and 1 day TV goes faulty, whats the procedure for getting a working TV again?

I would start by checking the tvs power supply

 

[oscar21]

Go to Currys. Pick a TV you like. Pay for it. Dispose of the old one responsibly.

Happy to help.

So exactly the same as if you didn't have an SPD then.

 

[DPG]

So exactly the same as if you didn't have an SPD then.

You're surely not expecting the SPD manufacturer to replace your TV whenever it goes faulty? Am I missing something?

 

[Risteard]

If you really don't want an SPD fitted and wish to accept the risks involved, then tell the electrician.
If he refuses to sign it off for that reason, then tell him you will take it up with his certification body.

No regulatory body is going to force an Electrician to not fit surge protection.

 

[MJPD29]

Out of interest, has anyone ever had to replaced an spd because of a surge or seen one that’s done its job?

 

[nicebutdim]

Out of interest, has anyone ever had to replaced an spd because of a surge or seen one that’s done its job?

I've seen one with red flags on 2 of 3 phases. Who knows how long it had been like that? Mad that I've also seen them in new industrial installations with no link to BMS.

 

[mainline]

Out of interest, has anyone ever had to replaced an spd because of a surge or seen one that’s done its job?

Seen one that seems to have done its job on a housing estate that had a mains surge.
Quite a few houses were fitted with the same make combi boilers.
All failed except the one that had an spd board recently fitted.

 

[mainline]

No regulatory body is going to force an Electrician to not fit surge protection.

It’s more to do with trying to force the electrician to sign off his work.
The installer has no right for not doing so.

 

[oscar21]

You're surely not expecting the SPD manufacturer to replace your TV whenever it goes faulty? Am I missing something?

I'm playing devils advocate, what I was trying to say is, if you don't have a surge protector then your TV will break, possibly because of a surge (unlikely but possible) but probably because its made of crap. If you do have an SPD fitted your TV will still break because its made of crap, no surge protector will stop that, but you are down £250.

Surely the most sensible thing to do with £250 is buy some sort of insurance policy that protects electronic stuff against damage.

And how come this wasn't a problem a few years ago, metal oxide varistors have been around since adam was a lad, there was never any need to fit them 10 years ago to anything. Are TV sales going to fall off a cliff now we are getting surge protectors, if that was true the tory mates that own big electronic business would never allow them.

 

[DPG]

I'm playing devils advocate, what I was trying to say is, if you don't have a surge protector then your TV will break, possibly because of a surge (unlikely but possible) but probably because its made of crap. If you do have an SPD fitted your TV will still break because its made of crap, no surge protector will stop that, but you are down £250.

Surely the most sensible thing to do with £250 is buy some sort of insurance policy that protects electronic stuff against damage.

And how come this wasn't a problem a few years ago, metal oxide varistors have been around since adam was a lad, there was never any need to fit them 10 years ago to anything. Are TV sales going to fall off a cliff now we are getting surge protectors, if that was true the tory mates that own big electronic business would never allow them.

Too many conspiracy theories in that for me.

You could say the same thing about many things. As an example, RCDs were around for years before they were enforced in the regs.

I'm from an electronics background, and I think I might have mentioned before a story about a company that tried to cut costs by removing surge protection components from a product. Guess what happened - product return rates went up, especially in regions more prone to storms. Nothing to do with some imagined 'built in expiry time' by the manufacturer.

It's not that there was 'never a need to fit them'. And it's nothing to do with the Tories!

 

[oscar21]

Too many conspiracy theories in that for me.

You could say the same thing about many things. As an example, RCDs were around for years before they were enforced in the regs.

I'm from an electronics background, and I think I might have mentioned before a story about a company that tried to cut costs by removing surge protection components from a product. Guess what happened - product return rates went up, especially in regions more prone to storms. Nothing to do with some imagined 'built in expiry time' by the manufacturer.

It's not that there was 'never a need to fit them'. And it's nothing to do with the Tories!

Doesn't most of the electronic stuff have surge protection built in anyway, a lot of the stuff Big Clive takes to bits has those blue MOV inside already. and of course stuff has a built in expiry time, even the original humble light bulb

 

[DPG]

Doesn't most of the electronic stuff have surge protection built in anyway, a lot of the stuff Big Clive takes to bits has those blue MOV inside already. and of course stuff has a built in expiry time, even the original humble light bulb

Some stuff does, some stuff doesn't. Some decent quality items usually have good surge protection, but a lot of things have the bare minimum to keep costs down. But I would always recommend a decent SPD be fitted at the consumer unit to be on the safe side. Especially with the amount of electronic equipment people have these days.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm playing devils advocate, what I was trying to say is, if you don't have a surge protector then your TV will break, possibly because of a surge (unlikely but possible) but probably because its made of crap. If you do have an SPD fitted your TV will still break because its made of crap, no surge protector will stop that, but you are down £250.

Surely the most sensible thing to do with £250 is buy some sort of insurance policy that protects electronic stuff against damage.

And how come this wasn't a problem a few years ago, metal oxide varistors have been around since adam was a lad, there was never any need to fit them 10 years ago to anything. Are TV sales going to fall off a cliff now we are getting surge protectors, if that was true the tory mates that own big electronic business would never allow them.

Better playing devil's advocate in a letter to the IET as it is they who write the regulations you're generally obliged to work to.

I see the point you're making and understand it, but you lost me with the pointless politicisation of your argument. Unless you know how the people responsible for writing BS7671 vote, then this seems like agitation for agitation's sake and would be better left at the door.

 

[pc1966]

Doesn't most of the electronic stuff have surge protection built in anyway, a lot of the stuff Big Clive takes to bits has those blue MOV inside already. and of course stuff has a built in expiry time, even the original humble light bulb

All reputable electronics will meet the relevant EU (now UK) standard for conducted immunity which includes such mains borne surges. All of that came in around 1996 with the EMC directive as before that time it was down the the manufacturer's ethics if they would meet any given immunity requirement or not (emissions were regulated way back due to impact on radio/TV).

Not that the EMC directive seems to matter much as it is largely self-policed so you can see where that is going...

But...the levels involved to meet that are quite low, off hand I don't know what is current but it used to be in the 1-2kV sort of region. How you achieve it is not specified, it might be MOV added to dissipate/clamp the surge, over-rated parts to survive it, or LC filters to reflect the high frequency part, etc, etc.

The purpose of the mains incoming SPD is to deal with the "big stuff" where you get tens of kA peak and energies of dozens of Joules, those would fry the protection built in to most end-use products. Hence the Type 1/2 at the CU (depending if direct/induced lightning rating) and Type 3 at the product (if needed).

Having SPD fitted does not guarantee that stuff will survive, nor does it deal with crap eBay-level imports, but it improves your chances!

 

[nicebutdim]

Ought to be a disclaimer posted for any newish member posting a thread, to warn them of the likely outcome of their actions