is this acceptable

[lofty84]

Ive followed 2 previous electricians into a property, they have had to cover me whilst my passes are sorted out and so I am doing what they were doing for the time being.

What I am concerned about is this. Theres a kitched ring and on the last double socket of that circuit is another piece of cable which is either 1mm or 1.5mm sq which runs up to where an expeeair extracto fan is going to be fitted. I could have just wired it uptoday but I wasnt sure if you could do that. Im sure ive read on here that this is not a good idea but Im probably wrong. either way I just wanted to check and seeing as this place is full of electricians I thought it was a good palce to ask such a thing.

 

[Ducksy]

guys, iread something about trainees not being allowed on this forum but allowed on another. is this right and if so how does the Moderator know?

Also why would Lofty have been banned? was it purely through stupid questions? Is he banned for life?

I feel very sad now. ive been making off SWA today and i couldnt wait to get home to find out how he'd got on at his job today. We'll never know what thoe cables in the boiler were!!

Mr Moderator, couldnt you let him back on for one more go? or maybe just wednesdays as it brings light relief to the centre of the working week? i enjoyed last night more than going out.

Mark I read this thread at the beginning you was well on ripping this guy the most (not without good reason) fact is you wouldn't want someone driving someone you cared about, who had never had a driving licence. if someone ask me if I could extract their teeth I would point them in the direction of a dentist that guy really had no clue....there's a difference in helping and spoon feeding.

 

[Joe_b87]

You take the sensible view. You are comfortable with your experienced knowledge and will limit yourself to jobs that you know you can do well.

The problem is exactly what you have just highlighted, a lot of people do the 5 week course and call themselves qualified electricians. They then presume they can do everything that a real qualified electrician can do an take these jobs on. They undercut the qualified sparks as they dont allow for all the materials needed to do the job safely and properly. But but but... They can sign the job off!!!
Part P doesn't work.

In this market theres always going to be rogues who will undercut the quality tradesman. My personal opinion is simple, you get what you pay for and the guys that undercut will end up doing sub standard work, all that will result in is more headaches than cash. I want to set up a business that has a good future, like most of the guys that post on here im sure the majority of your work is word of mouth, and thats because you do a proper job. It doesnt make any business sense to me to do something half arsed and chep just to make a quick buck. As part of my plan to build a business i'll be investing a lot of time in training and continually improving what i do.
As for part P it was never going to work, like most ideas floated by the government it gets implamented by beurocrats who have no real world experience and no view of the bigger picture and the issues it faces.

 

[Essexboy7]

This isnt abuse Joe but just a few relevant questions

.Somebody who calls themselves a spark should be able to confidently take on any commercial/domestic/industrial jobs.You should be able to design,plan,cost,do all relevant calculations,install and test the job

.Are you capable of putting 2 bubble sets in a length of 32mm tube and finishing it off in a swansneck?Are you confident of installing a simmtronic intelligent lighting system?Are you aware that each port at the LCM has a binary address and a hexidecimal equivalent at the panel?.Can you work out the volt drop on a length of 7 core pyro?Have you got the correct tools to make it off?Do you know all the old size imperial lengths of conduit?

If you dont have the capability to do this then you cannot put yourself in the same bracket as a timeserved,qualified,experienced spark.You are someone with a background in the building game,who has a few years experience working with sparks and has minimal electrical qualifications


There is always room for short courses to keep abreast of updates or to diversify into new areas of the industry such as solar power but i believe there should be a minimum entry standard.


I remember a time when anyone caught blagging it would be slung off site.Or no-one would talk to them as sparks couldnt believe the audacity of some chancer who would try and pass themselves off as a spark and get paid for it without having the neccessary paperwork.Now people think just because they have spent a few months pulling cables and have got the 17th and a nice new shiny set of CK tools they should be treated equally and paid the same as proper sparks


You seem to know your limitations at the moment Joe keep at it i am sure you will do ok

 

[UNG]

Very true and im under no illusion that i'll be able to deal with every situation i face, but i think theres a difference between a tradesman who finds themselves in over there heads and blags it, and a tradesman who knows when they need help or in more extreme circumstances knows when to walk away. Also the ability to adapt and know where to find out what you need to know in order to overcome a problem is something we all need at some point.

This is just one area the short courses fall short (excuse the pun), by only touching on a fraction of what is needed in the real world, they leave people with a false sense of security and they are likely to fall at the first hirdle.

There are some who work with a one size fits all attitude and struggle to adapt to different situations. With regard to walking away there are some who may see that as losing a customer and potential future business and carry on regardless of the consequences and the forum abuse they may get

The crux of the matter the way i see it is that there is a place for short courses, but there should be entry requirements in place to ensure the people paying out the cash are capable of doing the job to a certain extent. Although theres no transferable qualifications between trades as such, the things you learn through site experience from being an apprentice right through your career, are the skills and knowledge that not one of these courses can offer.

The current place for short courses for me is to underpin core knowledge that a short course can't deliver. Other than modularising the existing qualifications with a requirement that certain modules need to be completed to attain the grade it is difficult to deliver the core knowledge in short courses. While qualifications may not easily transfer between trades a lot of the skills and knowledge learnt in other areas may be useful when fault finding or finding solutions to problems you encounter on site

As far as technical knowledge and exams are concerned, i do believe there's alot that can be learned in a relatively short space of time. For example if i had never used an MFT to do an IR test before i could have been taught this in an afternoon, just like i could teach a spark how to braze a high pressure copper pipe joint with an oxy torch in a few hours.

As an IR test using an MFT is just one small part of it's capability how many afternoons would be needed to be fully conversant in using it to it's fullest and interpreting the results when fault finding and testing
I actually learnt brazing and welding in a few lessons at secondary school as an aside it's surprising how many sparks struggle to solder cables and PCB's

My opinion on this is that there is a place for short courses but it's a much further place than where we are now. Like the old saying goes 'theres no substitute for experience'. As for me im happy with what i know and im aware that theres a lot more out there i don't know. Bring on the abuse.....

There is nothing new about short courses they have been around for along time in all industries and have there place in updating knowledge and skills as the industry evolves and for gaining knowledge in specialist areas of the trade , the problem in the electrical industry is that they are being misused and misinterpreted as fully qualifying people as electricians having only learnt the peripheral and update stuff without the core knowledge

 

[Joe_b87]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Essexboy your quite right i could in no way answer those questions!! ;-) I am new to this game and we do all start out somewhere, i have ended up taking a rather scenic route and im only just getting on the right track. I hope i've not offended anybody on here i just wanted to make a point as i can see that there a lot of real cowboys out there e.g lofty! I hope i can seek any advice on here if i ever am in need of it, and i will be making a point of not parading round as top spark as im well aware that im long way off!!

 

[MDJ]

i did the 2330 lvl2+3 at college, no site experience though but ive learnt a lot in the last year and am doing a proper apprenticeship without block/day release to go college. personally i prefer it

Nah sorry I don't believe that, your only saying that because it is the way you were forced to go, it is just plain silly to suggest your route is more preferable than a proper time served apprenticship, Ive started early on the beer but don't try to ape me over this LMAO, good try though :smug:

 

[shanky887614]

Nah sorry I don't believe that, your only saying that because it is the way you were forced to go, it is just plain silly to suggest your route is more preferable than a proper time served apprenticship, Ive started early on the beer but don't try to ape me over this LMAO, good try though :smug:

im not suggesting anything, im just stating the way i started.

i went to sixth form first to do A levels and left after first year,

 

[MDJ]

I am not doubting your intelligence or ability, and don't doubt you will end up a great spark, but your route isn't the best route and thatcher is to Blame In my humble opinion regarding the death of apprentiships.


Mike

 

[shanky887614]

I am not doubting your intelligence or ability, and don't doubt you will end up a great spark, but your route isn't the best route and thatcher is to Blame In my humble opinion regarding the death of apprentiships.


Mike

i agree with that. i struggled like hell to get an aprentaship

did work experience for 3 different companies then i signed up for jtl, the training advisor was friends with one of the companies and he put my details through to one of his friends and i got the job.

most places just refuse when they hear you are 18, this place wont take on anyone under 18

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Labour didn't help with Part P legislation and all the incompetent persons schemes that they created which allowed the boom in quick training companies

The biggest demise has only occurred in the last 10 years the quick courses put paid to any meaningful apprenticeships as you can't complete an apprenticeship in 5 weeks but you can get sufficient certs to be competent

At least the skill centres of Thatchers era produced some reasonable sparks that didn't need to resort to the internet to solve all the problems they came across but then again they didn't have the internet available to them in the 80's

and this is the lie that is the 5 week electrician course....
fakery at its worst

 

[GLENNSPARK]

A 1.5 will take about 17 amps. If you connect that to this ring do you think this is safe? If not, why?

oh yeah?...
i think not for a flat twin.
try 19A clipped direct (method C)

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Not quite but beginning to get there.....

2.5's on a ring won't necessarily both take 16a as this would depend on their lengths and resistances. However this is a lesson for another day and we digress.

If the 1.5 will take only 17a and it is connected to a SOCKET ON A RING WHICH HAS A 32a MCB........(waits for it to sink in), what would you new to install to connect the 1.5 to, to make it safe?

the reason why we ballance out ring finals as best we can....and also check for true ring status...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

so here it is

View attachment 17654

sorry I got confussed earlier and misunderstood that the fan will be fussed at either 3/5 a i got my wires crossed and thought they did fcu rated at these

well thats wrong polarity then for a srart

 

[UNG]

I am not doubting your intelligence or ability, and don't doubt you will end up a great spark, but your route isn't the best route and thatcher is to Blame In my humble opinion regarding the death of apprentiships.

But Blair put the final nail in the coffin with the quick training courses

 

[trev]

To be fair guys the short course spark has always beenwith us, when I came out of my time there was horror at the introduction of a two year course. Then came the government's skillcentres which would take someone in and turn them into a "tradesman" in six months. They were known as "diluteys" then not 5WWs.
Furthermore, I remember when I was about 14 my mother got this split level cooker which needed a housing for the oven which had an igniter. The joiner that she got tried to wire a socket from a nearby light switch so the devaluation of our trade was going on then.
Nothing new under the sun.