Is this not legal?

[Goody]

If someone registered with NICEIC as a Domestic Installer but not registered under “Electrical Condition Inspection Report (ECIR)” scheme, in theory he should not be doing a PIR. Is this right or wrong? But the reg. stipulated that PIR should be done by a competent person. I have seen survey reports from Estate Agents that said "Condition of electrical installation should be checked and a report obtained from a NICEIC Electrical Contractor." There was nothing that said that Electrical Contractor must be registered under “Electrical Condition Inspection Report (ECIR)” scheme. I am sure this topic was discussed time & time again, please, pardon me:banghead:

Cheers!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the thing is n all ...is the 2391.....ok i have it and carry out periodics with my boss....however,..he doesn`t have it...but carrys out PIRs and i don`t think he`s in one of these PIR schemes...or whatever there called either......he also does PIRs on a regular basis for a busy letting agency.......a lot of propertys on this agent`s books.......

 

[ufkir]

it would be nice to know how many local authorities which have direct works are members of these bodies cos i dont think they would pay the cash every year

 

[Engineer54]

Totally agree Glenn but the problem with that is proving to the public someone is qualified to carry one out so the only way to be sure is to use someone who is registered with a body to do one.
Just having a 2391 means nothing without backing from a body and how many basic install questions have you seen from so called 2391 cert holders on here, Perhaps we should start our own body on here, there seems enough of us.

That's what Glenn and i have been talking about, ....they seem to have convinced you, that you NEED them, ....and the real truth is, you need them as much as a boil on your bum!! lol!! It's all slight of hand propaganda sales talk, (can't think of the right word for it...lol) that's designed to make you feel inferior with out their stamp of approval, ....and of course your wad of money for the privilege!!!

 

[Engineer54]

That's what Glenn and i have been talking about, ....they seem to have convinced you, that you NEED them, ....and the real truth is, you need them as much as a boil on your bum!! lol!! It's all slight of hand propaganda sales talk, (can't think of the right word for it...lol) that's designed to make you feel inferior with out their stamp of approval, ....and of course your wad of money for the privilege!!!

If C&G 2391 isn't worth anything, then why would spend time and money getting it?? The fact is, it's worth MORE than any stamp of approval from any of these scam providers!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yes eng...its mind games playing one off against the other and its despicable....and just to take it further n all.....my boss has much greater experience than i when it comes to PIRs n stuff.....and thats how it should be.....i wouldn`t dare to presume otherwise......its about knowing what you are looking at....whats staring you in the face......not necessarily certs or being in a "PIR scheme"......but the thing`s sold on so many now.......funny enough though......the "man in the street" wouldn`t know owt about the 2391......all they care about is wether the works done and a cert/report is issued......now heres where the cowboys fall flat as they generally wont/cant issue certs for remidial works carried out and agents etc will get to know em.....but it dont necessarily mean that just because you are in a scheme that you have a clue about PIRing......take this one for example......got into a place the other day where another electrician had done a PIR there....gave the old BS3036 as a 1.......my boss n i had a look at it......and OK it wasn`t great but could have been improved (it was just the way the cables entered the board).......it was a 2....

 

[Goody]

Just stumbled on this page PIRs Explained : Electrical Safety Council and noted the following.

"There are no government-approved schemes in the UK that register electricians to carry out the periodic inspection and testing of electrical wiring. So, just because an electrician is registered doesn’t make them qualified."

 

[Engineer54]

Just stumbled on this page PIRs Explained : Electrical Safety Council and noted the following.

"There are no government-approved schemes in the UK that register electricians to carry out the periodic inspection and testing of electrical wiring. So, just because an electrician is registered doesn’t make them qualified."

I rest my case, Me Lord !!...lol!!!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Just stumbled on this page PIRs Explained : Electrical Safety Council and noted the following.

"There are no government-approved schemes in the UK that register electricians to carry out the periodic inspection and testing of electrical wiring. So, just because an electrician is registered doesn’t make them qualified."

Goody that is a bit naughty just attaching a section of the advice when the next part is

However the following organizations do register electricians that can carry out this work (although not all cover the entire UK). So, before employing an electrician to carry out a PIR, check with the organization they are registered with to ensure they can do this type of work

And there is a list of the schemes under this paragraph

The trouble is not only our industry but society. Yes there are guys that I know that have no qualifications at all, that trained in the 50,s and probably forgotten more that i'll ever know.

And on the other side of the scale lads that have so many qualifications it makes your brain hurt, that I wouldn't trust to fit a plug top.

The trouble is though not competency or lack it, the problem is blame and who do we point a finger at. In our "it must be someones fault society, who can I sue ", the bottom line for letting agents/insurance companies/bodies if anything went wrong and they are blamed for using someone that is not competent, they are in deep mire.

So this is why we have a proliferation of schemes all telling these associations:

" If you choose to have your work done by a member of our body, then we can guarantee their competency".

In other words if anything goes wrong and the finger is pointed at you, you can point the finger at us, and that is a lovely safety net for these companies ordering the inspection and testing.

There are so many problems now within the industry and society, lack of proper training, guys being let loose on domestic installations that really should not be, a society that has to have someone to blame, the list could be endless.

When I first started there was the NICEIC and that was it. In them days they were a charity like the IEE was, and they were unrecognizable to what they are now. They did uphold standards, they worked with contractors to keep that standard, and with that much aligned body the JIB, they also developed training, but all that is gone.

I personally don't think it is the NICEIC fault that they have evolved into what they are today, I think they have had to adapt to market trends of little training now being available, little support given to the industry by government and the private sector in training proper rounded electricians. Personally I think we are at a major crossroads in the industry and unfortunately perhaps IMO we will not take the right road.

 

[Engineer54]

" If you choose to have your work done by a member of our body, then we can guarantee their competency".

Now we ALL know they CAN'T guarantee competency, so what sort of insurance do they have to offer to cover themselves, when the proverbial hits the fan??

Surely the electricians carrying out this work would be covered by there own insurance anyway?? So just a little confused here, about how things stand from this view point, ...can anyone enlighten me??

 

[malcolmsanford]

Guarantee of Standards Scheme
NICEIC expects its registered contractors to provide a quality service to their customers and, therefore, endeavour to resolve all complaints about the technical standard of their electrical work. If a customer and an Approved Contractor are unable to resolve an alleged deficiency in the technical standard of electrical work, the customer can make a formal complaint to NICEIC. NICEIC will help facilitate the negotiations between the contractor and the complainant.
As described below, the NICEIC Complaints Procedure requires the an NICEIC-registered contractor to resolve the technical deficiency without additional cost to the consumer. However, if the contractor does not undertake the required remedial work, NICEIC’s Guarantee of Standards Scheme ensures it will be done by another NICEIC-registered contractor, at no cost to the customer.

This is from the NICEIC website mate and is their guarantee of competency as such.

I'm sure all the other schemes will run a similar guarantee.

Also all the schemes as part of their conditions of enrolling insist all contractors have the relevant insurance in place to carry out the work the schemes guarantee them for.

 

[Engineer54]

Guarantee of Standards Scheme
NICEIC expects its registered contractors to provide a quality service to their customers and, therefore, endeavour to resolve all complaints about the technical standard of their electrical work. If a customer and an Approved Contractor are unable to resolve an alleged deficiency in the technical standard of electrical work, the customer can make a formal complaint to NICEIC. NICEIC will help facilitate the negotiations between the contractor and the complainant.
As described below, the NICEIC Complaints Procedure requires the an NICEIC-registered contractor to resolve the technical deficiency without additional cost to the consumer. However, if the contractor does not undertake the required remedial work, NICEIC’s Guarantee of Standards Scheme ensures it will be done by another NICEIC-registered contractor, at no cost to the customer.

This is from the NICEIC website mate and is their guarantee of competency as such.

I'm sure all the other schemes will run a similar guarantee.

Also all the schemes as part of their conditions of enrolling insist all contractors have the relevant insurance in place to carry out the work the schemes guarantee them for.

So in all honesty, for all this extra cash they call for, from the electrician for PIR coverage, they get little in return. So if the said electrician is insured as a matter of course the risk to the provider is minimal to say the least. I did guess that it would be along the lines you have posted here Malcolm.
Basically they are just cutting out the small claims court legal procedure, as the customer will still be getting any remedial work free of additional charge if the case is found proven.

No matter what way you look at this, the previous statement they make about ''Guarantee of competency'' is at best ,...Tongue in Cheek, and at worst veering towards a fraudulent statement... Now, i wonder how many times they have had to pay for another of their registered contractors to carryout remedial work?? And there lies another question, what remedial work would there be on a PIR, ....i'm still thinking about that one ...lol!!!

 

[Goody]

Hi malcolmsanford,

I didn't mean to sound naughty. When I hit the line, "So, just because an electrician is registered doesn’t make them qualified." I thought even if you are registered with a body, you are not qualified to do PIR.

Sorry, I didn't grasp the point with its full meaning, my apologies!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The Landlord I produced an EICR for, has now had the letting agency who are acting on behalf of the local Council, conduct an inspection.
This is what has been said:
"Unfortunately he has failed the NICEIC certificate. This is due to the following –

1) He would need to put a new fuseboard in as the current one is wooden
2) There is a fault on the lighting circuit and it needs to be earthed
3) There is no bonding to the gas meter
4) The main tails and main earth conductor are undersized.

The cost for these four things is £440.00 (- the new fuseboard costs £340.00). Then, the new NICEIC would be £100.00, so the total cost for everything would be £540.00. (Basically, ***** ******, the electrician, won’t charge for the failed certificate, as long as you use him to do the remedial works and issue the new NICEIC)."

1)The Consumer Unit is an old Wylex Re-wireable one, with a plastic front and wooded carcase.
As I understand it, these were manufactured to a British Standard, which is still acceptable for use in the current Regulations (just awaiting confirmation of the BS No. from Wylex).
The NICEIC technical help line recommend thes CUs be changed, as they are considered a fire risk, Code 2.
2)Not aware of a lack of earthing on the lighting circuit, as the Zs were 0.45Ω.
3)the supply pipe to the gas meter is plastic. It comes outof the ground outside the property, runs up the outside wall aprox. 2.5m in a grey pipe, then enters the property through the wall where it is connected to the meter at high level (approx. 2.5m above floor level). None of the subsequent pipework fed from the meter comes in contact with the ground at any point. The NICEIC help line suggest that the gas does not require bonding.
4) The supply is 60A, the tails are 16mm² and the main earth is 10mm².
The NICEIC help line suggest that the conductors are adequately sized, and that 16mm² tails have a CCC of 87A.

 

[trev]

So they're expecting you to do a free PIR then do the work at a price they dictate. I think not

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So they're expecting you to do a free PIR then do the work at a price they dictate. I think not

No what it is, is that I have issued a Satisfactory report, and this other Electrician has failed the installation, but is willing to issue a Satisfactory if the work detailed is carried out, at the price quoted.
As far as I'm aware the electrician has not actually issued the report.