Is this not legal?

[Goody]

If someone registered with NICEIC as a Domestic Installer but not registered under “Electrical Condition Inspection Report (ECIR)” scheme, in theory he should not be doing a PIR. Is this right or wrong? But the reg. stipulated that PIR should be done by a competent person. I have seen survey reports from Estate Agents that said "Condition of electrical installation should be checked and a report obtained from a NICEIC Electrical Contractor." There was nothing that said that Electrical Contractor must be registered under “Electrical Condition Inspection Report (ECIR)” scheme. I am sure this topic was discussed time & time again, please, pardon me:banghead:

Cheers!

 

[Richard Burns]

For someone to carry out a PIR (EICR) they must be competent, end of.
Some people, like estate agents, state that the person must be NICEIC registered this is only their internal paperwork and nothing to do with the law or regulations just a hang over from old paperwork. (ECA are working to ensure that NICEIC are not the only recommended scheme.)
Scam schemes do have PIR registration for just this reason but they mean nothing from a legal point of view.

 

[needasparks]

I would have said that if someone has only domestic status then the person is not assessed to carry out PIR 's so their the report is worthless, as they are only assessed on work they carry out. When they miss something on a report and it goes wrong see what happens in court when that little jem comes out.

 

[HandySparks]

I would have said that if someone has only domestic status then the person is not assessed to carry out PIR 's so their the report is worthless, as they are only assessed on work they carry out. When they miss something on a report and it goes wrong see what happens in court when that little jem comes out.

It's not a legal requirement to be registered for PIRs/EICRs. If the person is competent and, for example, has their C&G 2391, I'd say it's up to them whether they choose to pay for NIC's stamp of approval. To say that their report is worthless is assuming too much.

 

[Engineer54]

Unbelievable!! ....These scam providers have even got some of you doubting yourself and your competency. Based on what, that you haven't or not silly enough to pay big bucks, for there PIR register, something you DON'T need!! Stick to your own Stamp of Approval and keep your hard earned cash in the Tommy Tank where it belongs!!!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I have recently conducted a PIR for a Landlord who wishes to rent their property to the Local Authority.
Apparently the Local Authority have stated they are only willing to accept reports from persons registered with either the NICEIC or NAPIT.
I phoned the relevant Department yesterday afternoon, and spoke to a chap who admitted that he had no idea. He said he would find out and get back to me.
He phoned a little while later and said that they would accept reports from anyone registered with a body on the Goverment's approved list.
Unfortunately, he was unable find the list, said he would get back to me.
Perhaps tomorrow?

 

[malcolmsanford]

As all the other lads have pointed out you can carry out a PIR/EICR on any installation providing you are/feel competent enough to do it.

Unfortunately unless you are registered with the NIECIC/ELECSA PIR/EICR scheme, which I still think you have to pay extra for, as you have had an assessment on this, then you can not use their official forms to do your report on, in the case of NICEIC, you can buy green forms, but they clearly state on them that they are not endorsed as such by the NICEIC scheme, which I would imagine any agency will not accept.

Bottom line as a domestic NICEIC installer you can do as many PIR/NICEIC on whatever kind of installation you want, you just can't use the NICEIC official forms, and that is the same with ELECSA.

I still believe that NAPIT do the dual single self certification/PIR/EICR for domestic installers,under the one payment, as long as you have the C&G 2391 or the NAPIT equivalent.

 

[Richard Burns]

I probably ought to point out that the competence of the inspector could be called into question and in that case you would need some level of proof that you are competent. C&G 2391 (2395) would be the currently accepted proof. PIRs EICRs require an "above average level of experience and competence" according to, I think, ESC.

 

[trev]

Just a partially formed thought at the moment but. Most of us on here are well qualified sparks with many years experience of being out there in the field practicing our trade. Most of us agree it's our quals and experience that make us competent not that we may or may not belong to a gang.
Can you imagine the uproar from chartered accountants if the government suddenly said in order to carry out personal tax work you have to prove competency by joining this other gang as well as the ACA. Or if solicitors had to join another one to do property conveyancing over the top of their law society membership.
I don't think they would put up with it.

 

[Engineer54]

All this is very strange to me!! How come the terms qualified, and electrician has so many connotations these days?? Surely, if you need certain C&G to be termed as qualified or be termed as an electrician then these C&G requirements should be mandatory for ALL electricians??

This to me just shows how the term Electrician has been devalued over the years. Seems that now you have lower class electricians that are deemed qualified to install, test and sign off there own work, ...but not qualified to test and inspect other electricians installations, or existing installations, as in PIR's!! To be able to undertake those tasks, a higher class electrician, one that has C&G 2391 is deemed qualified. Not only that, he can over rule, or let's say he's word is taken as prove over an electrician that doesn't have 2391!!! ....It just doesn't make too much sense to me at all.

 

[Rockingit]

Or, E54, to put it another way; Too many cooks and not enough broth?

Maybe the answer is staring us in the face: the preface, that is, of BS7671. You know, that long list of names and impressive letters after them that wrote it. If I get on THAT list, then I MUST be able to do everything, right? Oh, but hang on, that's just advisory, not law. Erm........

 

[Engineer54]

Or, E54, to put it another way; Too many cooks and not enough broth?

Maybe the answer is staring us in the face: the preface, that is, of BS7671. You know, that long list of names and impressive letters after them that wrote it. If I get on THAT list, then I MUST be able to do everything, right? Oh, but hang on, that's just advisory, not law. Erm........

To be totally honest with you, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all, to pass the Electrical Building Reg's (BS7671) over to the CIBS to administer and regulate. A far more professional body than what the IET has become these day's... lol!!!

 

[Rockingit]

Steady now, wars have been started by less.....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

PIR: not notifyable
Remedial work as a result of PIR: may be notifyable
Its a con boys...and their all at it!!...sinse when do you have to "prove competency" to carry out PIRs??...If you know yourself what you are looking for on a periodic then thats enough.....I dont see why i should/would pay from £250 for one of em...up to about £3-400 on top for others of them telling me i can carry out PIRs.....total nonsense......if you are asked for such services ...and feel you can carry them out in the right manner and your public indemnity is in place......then all good to go...I`m a bit sick n tired of hearing about/seeing one organisation or another just trying it on over your cash........just look at the wording given off by em for a start.....its all designed to fool the inexperienced into thinking you NEED to be part of this PIR racket......well i would say that if you arn`t experienced enough to know that PIRs aint notifyable.......shouldn`t be carrying em out then really........

 

[needasparks]

Totally agree Glenn but the problem with that is proving to the public someone is qualified to carry one out so the only way to be sure is to use someone who is registered with a body to do one.
Just having a 2391 means nothing without backing from a body and how many basic install questions have you seen from so called 2391 cert holders on here, Perhaps we should start our own body on here, there seems enough of us.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the thing is n all ...is the 2391.....ok i have it and carry out periodics with my boss....however,..he doesn`t have it...but carrys out PIRs and i don`t think he`s in one of these PIR schemes...or whatever there called either......he also does PIRs on a regular basis for a busy letting agency.......a lot of propertys on this agent`s books.......

 

[ufkir]

it would be nice to know how many local authorities which have direct works are members of these bodies cos i dont think they would pay the cash every year

 

[Engineer54]

Totally agree Glenn but the problem with that is proving to the public someone is qualified to carry one out so the only way to be sure is to use someone who is registered with a body to do one.
Just having a 2391 means nothing without backing from a body and how many basic install questions have you seen from so called 2391 cert holders on here, Perhaps we should start our own body on here, there seems enough of us.

That's what Glenn and i have been talking about, ....they seem to have convinced you, that you NEED them, ....and the real truth is, you need them as much as a boil on your bum!! lol!! It's all slight of hand propaganda sales talk, (can't think of the right word for it...lol) that's designed to make you feel inferior with out their stamp of approval, ....and of course your wad of money for the privilege!!!

 

[Engineer54]

That's what Glenn and i have been talking about, ....they seem to have convinced you, that you NEED them, ....and the real truth is, you need them as much as a boil on your bum!! lol!! It's all slight of hand propaganda sales talk, (can't think of the right word for it...lol) that's designed to make you feel inferior with out their stamp of approval, ....and of course your wad of money for the privilege!!!

If C&G 2391 isn't worth anything, then why would spend time and money getting it?? The fact is, it's worth MORE than any stamp of approval from any of these scam providers!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yes eng...its mind games playing one off against the other and its despicable....and just to take it further n all.....my boss has much greater experience than i when it comes to PIRs n stuff.....and thats how it should be.....i wouldn`t dare to presume otherwise......its about knowing what you are looking at....whats staring you in the face......not necessarily certs or being in a "PIR scheme"......but the thing`s sold on so many now.......funny enough though......the "man in the street" wouldn`t know owt about the 2391......all they care about is wether the works done and a cert/report is issued......now heres where the cowboys fall flat as they generally wont/cant issue certs for remidial works carried out and agents etc will get to know em.....but it dont necessarily mean that just because you are in a scheme that you have a clue about PIRing......take this one for example......got into a place the other day where another electrician had done a PIR there....gave the old BS3036 as a 1.......my boss n i had a look at it......and OK it wasn`t great but could have been improved (it was just the way the cables entered the board).......it was a 2....

 

[Goody]

Just stumbled on this page PIRs Explained : Electrical Safety Council and noted the following.

"There are no government-approved schemes in the UK that register electricians to carry out the periodic inspection and testing of electrical wiring. So, just because an electrician is registered doesn’t make them qualified."

 

[Engineer54]

Just stumbled on this page PIRs Explained : Electrical Safety Council and noted the following.

"There are no government-approved schemes in the UK that register electricians to carry out the periodic inspection and testing of electrical wiring. So, just because an electrician is registered doesn’t make them qualified."

I rest my case, Me Lord !!...lol!!!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Just stumbled on this page PIRs Explained : Electrical Safety Council and noted the following.

"There are no government-approved schemes in the UK that register electricians to carry out the periodic inspection and testing of electrical wiring. So, just because an electrician is registered doesn’t make them qualified."

Goody that is a bit naughty just attaching a section of the advice when the next part is

However the following organizations do register electricians that can carry out this work (although not all cover the entire UK). So, before employing an electrician to carry out a PIR, check with the organization they are registered with to ensure they can do this type of work

And there is a list of the schemes under this paragraph

The trouble is not only our industry but society. Yes there are guys that I know that have no qualifications at all, that trained in the 50,s and probably forgotten more that i'll ever know.

And on the other side of the scale lads that have so many qualifications it makes your brain hurt, that I wouldn't trust to fit a plug top.

The trouble is though not competency or lack it, the problem is blame and who do we point a finger at. In our "it must be someones fault society, who can I sue ", the bottom line for letting agents/insurance companies/bodies if anything went wrong and they are blamed for using someone that is not competent, they are in deep mire.

So this is why we have a proliferation of schemes all telling these associations:

" If you choose to have your work done by a member of our body, then we can guarantee their competency".

In other words if anything goes wrong and the finger is pointed at you, you can point the finger at us, and that is a lovely safety net for these companies ordering the inspection and testing.

There are so many problems now within the industry and society, lack of proper training, guys being let loose on domestic installations that really should not be, a society that has to have someone to blame, the list could be endless.

When I first started there was the NICEIC and that was it. In them days they were a charity like the IEE was, and they were unrecognizable to what they are now. They did uphold standards, they worked with contractors to keep that standard, and with that much aligned body the JIB, they also developed training, but all that is gone.

I personally don't think it is the NICEIC fault that they have evolved into what they are today, I think they have had to adapt to market trends of little training now being available, little support given to the industry by government and the private sector in training proper rounded electricians. Personally I think we are at a major crossroads in the industry and unfortunately perhaps IMO we will not take the right road.

 

[Engineer54]

" If you choose to have your work done by a member of our body, then we can guarantee their competency".

Now we ALL know they CAN'T guarantee competency, so what sort of insurance do they have to offer to cover themselves, when the proverbial hits the fan??

Surely the electricians carrying out this work would be covered by there own insurance anyway?? So just a little confused here, about how things stand from this view point, ...can anyone enlighten me??

 

[malcolmsanford]

Guarantee of Standards Scheme
NICEIC expects its registered contractors to provide a quality service to their customers and, therefore, endeavour to resolve all complaints about the technical standard of their electrical work. If a customer and an Approved Contractor are unable to resolve an alleged deficiency in the technical standard of electrical work, the customer can make a formal complaint to NICEIC. NICEIC will help facilitate the negotiations between the contractor and the complainant.
As described below, the NICEIC Complaints Procedure requires the an NICEIC-registered contractor to resolve the technical deficiency without additional cost to the consumer. However, if the contractor does not undertake the required remedial work, NICEIC’s Guarantee of Standards Scheme ensures it will be done by another NICEIC-registered contractor, at no cost to the customer.

This is from the NICEIC website mate and is their guarantee of competency as such.

I'm sure all the other schemes will run a similar guarantee.

Also all the schemes as part of their conditions of enrolling insist all contractors have the relevant insurance in place to carry out the work the schemes guarantee them for.

 

[Engineer54]

Guarantee of Standards Scheme
NICEIC expects its registered contractors to provide a quality service to their customers and, therefore, endeavour to resolve all complaints about the technical standard of their electrical work. If a customer and an Approved Contractor are unable to resolve an alleged deficiency in the technical standard of electrical work, the customer can make a formal complaint to NICEIC. NICEIC will help facilitate the negotiations between the contractor and the complainant.
As described below, the NICEIC Complaints Procedure requires the an NICEIC-registered contractor to resolve the technical deficiency without additional cost to the consumer. However, if the contractor does not undertake the required remedial work, NICEIC’s Guarantee of Standards Scheme ensures it will be done by another NICEIC-registered contractor, at no cost to the customer.

This is from the NICEIC website mate and is their guarantee of competency as such.

I'm sure all the other schemes will run a similar guarantee.

Also all the schemes as part of their conditions of enrolling insist all contractors have the relevant insurance in place to carry out the work the schemes guarantee them for.

So in all honesty, for all this extra cash they call for, from the electrician for PIR coverage, they get little in return. So if the said electrician is insured as a matter of course the risk to the provider is minimal to say the least. I did guess that it would be along the lines you have posted here Malcolm.
Basically they are just cutting out the small claims court legal procedure, as the customer will still be getting any remedial work free of additional charge if the case is found proven.

No matter what way you look at this, the previous statement they make about ''Guarantee of competency'' is at best ,...Tongue in Cheek, and at worst veering towards a fraudulent statement... Now, i wonder how many times they have had to pay for another of their registered contractors to carryout remedial work?? And there lies another question, what remedial work would there be on a PIR, ....i'm still thinking about that one ...lol!!!

 

[Goody]

Hi malcolmsanford,

I didn't mean to sound naughty. When I hit the line, "So, just because an electrician is registered doesn’t make them qualified." I thought even if you are registered with a body, you are not qualified to do PIR.

Sorry, I didn't grasp the point with its full meaning, my apologies!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The Landlord I produced an EICR for, has now had the letting agency who are acting on behalf of the local Council, conduct an inspection.
This is what has been said:
"Unfortunately he has failed the NICEIC certificate. This is due to the following –

1) He would need to put a new fuseboard in as the current one is wooden
2) There is a fault on the lighting circuit and it needs to be earthed
3) There is no bonding to the gas meter
4) The main tails and main earth conductor are undersized.

The cost for these four things is £440.00 (- the new fuseboard costs £340.00). Then, the new NICEIC would be £100.00, so the total cost for everything would be £540.00. (Basically, ***** ******, the electrician, won’t charge for the failed certificate, as long as you use him to do the remedial works and issue the new NICEIC)."

1)The Consumer Unit is an old Wylex Re-wireable one, with a plastic front and wooded carcase.
As I understand it, these were manufactured to a British Standard, which is still acceptable for use in the current Regulations (just awaiting confirmation of the BS No. from Wylex).
The NICEIC technical help line recommend thes CUs be changed, as they are considered a fire risk, Code 2.
2)Not aware of a lack of earthing on the lighting circuit, as the Zs were 0.45Ω.
3)the supply pipe to the gas meter is plastic. It comes outof the ground outside the property, runs up the outside wall aprox. 2.5m in a grey pipe, then enters the property through the wall where it is connected to the meter at high level (approx. 2.5m above floor level). None of the subsequent pipework fed from the meter comes in contact with the ground at any point. The NICEIC help line suggest that the gas does not require bonding.
4) The supply is 60A, the tails are 16mm² and the main earth is 10mm².
The NICEIC help line suggest that the conductors are adequately sized, and that 16mm² tails have a CCC of 87A.

 

[trev]

So they're expecting you to do a free PIR then do the work at a price they dictate. I think not

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So they're expecting you to do a free PIR then do the work at a price they dictate. I think not

No what it is, is that I have issued a Satisfactory report, and this other Electrician has failed the installation, but is willing to issue a Satisfactory if the work detailed is carried out, at the price quoted.
As far as I'm aware the electrician has not actually issued the report.

 

[tony mc]

If I was the landlord I would want a copy of the report not just the letting agencys say so.

At least Dick Turpin wore a mask!

 

[Engineer54]

Spin,

Those Wylex wooden open back CU's were produced in the millions, have you ever heard of one catching fire, i and i bet no-one on this forum has either?? The wood is hard wood and a seasoned and treated hardwood at that!! The dammed things are far more robust than the thin plastic one's of today, ....so long as they were mounted on non-combustible wall or structure, they were more than sound!!!

The times i've heard this crap about those old Wylex CU's being a fire risk, ...But no-one has ever seen or know of one actually catching fire, ....Probably because they Don't!! lol!!! Just another of the multitude of myth's that abound in our industry!!!

And here we have the NIC yet again trying to rewrite the rules. How can a that CU be a code two if it meets a previous IEE Regulation requirements??...

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I must admit, that I find it strange that fire doors are manufactured out of wood or metal.
The few plastic types have a wood interior, and are basically a wooden door with a plastic outer skin.
Also, as far as I'm aware, plastic produces toxic fumes when burnt.
The NICEIC consider wooden Consumer Units a code 2, whereas plastic ones are considered acceptable.
Perhaps in the NICEIC world plastic doesn't burn?

 

[HandySparks]

Also, as far as I'm aware, plastic produces toxic fumes when burnt.
The NICEIC consider wooden Consumer Units a code 2, whereas plastic ones are considered acceptable.
Perhaps in the NICEIC world plastic doesn't burn?

When I was designing enclosures for electronic equipment, one of the criteria for selecting plastic material or parts was their flammability rating. If I remember right, UL94 V-0 was the spec for the most fire-resistant plastics; the plastic stops burning when you remove the source of heat.

As to toxic fumes, that's also possible to control, ie LSZH insulated cable.

 

[Engineer54]

When I was designing enclosures for electronic equipment, one of the criteria for selecting plastic material or parts was their flammability rating. If I remember right, UL94 V-0 was the spec for the most fire-resistant plastics; the plastic stops burning when you remove the source of heat.

As to toxic fumes, that's also possible to control, ie LSZH insulated cable.

Don't stop the CU melting down into a blob though does it?? lol!! An electrical high resistance fault can keep the heat source going for hours on end. Which is why you see so many of these plastic CU's and accessories totally destroyed when faced with such faults. Try and set fire by a heat source to seasoned hardwood it can scorch may even glow a little but spontaneous combustion, ...very little chance!! Soft wood is a completely different matter though. ...lol!!

 

[mydigitalhome]

More important are you insured to do PIR (EICR) reports. To illustrate asked a friend who had been doing testing for last 20 years superb electrician. Only to find when he questioned his insurance company that he was not actually covered. He was told that testing was not added automatically to insurance policies and was normally an extra. However in case his they agreed they were at fault and added "testing other peoples work" to his policy FOC. (If he had originally installed the installation and then tested same board 5 years later it would have been ok under his old policy docs) No doubt they will sting him next year. Spoken to a few electricians now about this and it looks like this is a general problem and people not always covered/insured to do certain works due to not reading their policies carefully.

 

[HandySparks]

More important are you insured to do PIR (EICR) reports.

I think "are you competent?" is more important than "are you insured?".

See this thread:
http://www.electriciansforums.net/i...demnity-insurance-pirs-eicrs-waste-money.html

Insurance is only of any value if it'll pay out when required. Otherwise, it's a false comfort and a waste of money.

 

[sedgy34]

If someone registered with NICEIC as a Domestic Installer but not registered under “Electrical Condition Inspection Report (ECIR)” scheme, in theory he should not be doing a PIR. Is this right or wrong? But the reg. stipulated that PIR should be done by a competent person. I have seen survey reports from Estate Agents that said "Condition of electrical installation should be checked and a report obtained from a NICEIC Electrical Contractor." There was nothing that said that Electrical Contractor must be registered under “Electrical Condition Inspection Report (ECIR)” scheme. I am sure this topic was discussed time & time again, please, pardon me:banghead:

If the guy is domestic installer hes proved to be competent cause hes registered deffinately legal

 

[Electricalwork9]

Competent person is the requirement

 

[SparkyBrad]

Bearing all this in mind i find it very very strange that you can buy PIR and EICR from the NICEIC website without being a member at all! I have to admit that they are different colours for non member, domestic installers and approved contractors. So if this is the case then surely there is no law against undertaking the reports. It is nothing more than a window in time describing the condition of the installation. If something went wrong at a later date then it would be difficult to point the finger at the sparks who did a report 2 years ago! Most of the time we undertake these reports so that estate agents can jump through hoops! The old numbering system was pretty good, but so much was a 3 or 4 that landlords would never get the work completed anyway, putting the onus back on them! They're happy cos they have their report, we are happy cos we have given our view and they have paid us, even if they choose to ignore everything we have said.