Issue with doorbell and bell.

Rickyk74 · Apr 18, 2020

Hi,

Hoping someone can help a diy-er during this period, I got bored, but I wish I’d left my video doorbell alone.

Decided it was also time to get rid of the old ringer which I shoved a 0v-24v DC transformer in when i purchased the doorbell and obviously the chime casing never fitted properly afterwards. All worked perfectly, just didn’t look great. So I recently purchased a Grothe 24v AC bell 9photo attached). Wired the bell in as a replacement for the chime and just got a constant ring when i turned the power back on. Tried a few alternative wiring combinations but all the same result - constant ring when power went back on.

So I then purchased myself a 0v-24v AC transformer, seeing as the bell itself was AC I guessed the DC transformer was the issue. No, constant ringing when the power goes back on. The doorbell works fine when you take the bell out of the equation and powers up fine utilising the 0v-24v AC transformer. The Hikvision DS-KB6003 doorbell I have takes 24v AC power so not sure where its going wrong.

Wiring diagram attached. Hope it makes sense.

Hoping its something simple and I’m just wiring in wrong.

Any advise gratefully received

Richard

marconi · Apr 18, 2020

Could you tell me the exact make and model of your video door-push please?

Some video door-pushes will never work with a bell or chime and instead one has to use a plug in electronic chime connected wirelessly to the video doorpush.

Rickyk74 · Apr 18, 2020

marconi said:
Could you tell me the exact make and model of your video door-push please?

Some video door-pushes will never work with a bell or chime and instead one has to use a plug in electronic chime connected wirelessly to the video doorpush.

Agree, but not this one. It previously worked with a step down transformer and chime in the circuit, unsure why switching to the Grothe bell in the circuit now produces a constant ring. I’m assuming an issue with the switch from dc to ac transformer, or to an ac bell. Doorbell is ac so I assumed ac transformer and ac bell would work to.....

marconi · Apr 18, 2020

Sir, I might be able to help but to do so I'd need details of the video doorpush. Electrons can have quirky behaviour when they flow in circuits of seemingly the same but actually slightly different components. Most folk on this forum will attest to that ;-)

Rickyk74 · Apr 18, 2020

marconi said:
Sir, I might be able to help but to do so I'd need details of the video doorpush. Electrons can have quirky behaviour when they flow in circuits of seemingly the same but actually slightly different components. Most folk on this forum will attest to that ;-)

Marconi, if you could that would be much appreciated. I’ve done so much googling I’m bored as I just can’t find an answer, and it would appear not that many people have this exact doorbell from the limited mention of it across the net.

The doorbell is from Hikvision and it is the DS-KB6003-WIP. It works on 24vac. Here’s a link DS-KB6003-WIP Wi-Fi Video Doorbell-Hikvision - https://www.hikvision.com/Products/Video-Intercom/Wi-Fi-Door-Bell/DS-KB6003-WIP.

Any other info I can help with?

hey made a later one, A DS-KB6403 which works on12vac.

Hope you can help.

Richard
[automerge]1587240955[/automerge]

marconi said:
Sir, I might be able to help but to do so I'd need details of the video doorpush. Electrons can have quirky behaviour when they flow in circuits of seemingly the same but actually slightly different components. Most folk on this forum will attest to that ;-)

Here is a photo from the manual, this is the circuit apparently using a resistor that came in the box. Apparently you don’t need the resistor if you add in a bell to the circuit. I never needed the resistor when it was wired into the original doorbell chime with a 24vdc transformer. Maybe it does now?
On this page they also advise of some transformers that would power it, though I have no issue with the power to the doorbell. When I remove bell and wire straight through to the video doorbell it works just fine. It’s running great. Just need the bell so I know someone’s actually at the door ;-)

Rickyk74 · Apr 18, 2020

marconi said:
Sir, I might be able to help but to do so I'd need details of the video doorpush. Electrons can have quirky behaviour when they flow in circuits of seemingly the same but actually slightly different components. Most folk on this forum will attest to that ;-)

Here is a photo from the manual, this is the circuit apparently using a resistor that came in the box. Apparently you don’t need the resistor if you add in a bell to the circuit. I never needed the resistor when it was wired into the original doorbell chime with a 24vdc transformer. Maybe it does now?
On this page they also advise of some transformers that would power it, though I have no issue with the power to the doorbell. When I remove bell and wire straight through to the video doorbell it works just fine. It’s running great. Just need the bell so I know someone’s actually at the door ;-)

marconi · Apr 19, 2020

Thank you for the information. To be sure I am on the same page as you:

1. You have a HIKVISION Value range video doorpush - the ac one.
2. With the dc psu and door original chime all is fine - but ugly.
3. With the dc psu and new ac bell there is a constant ringing. I am not clear whether the HIKVIS powered up and worked - did it? - I suspect not unless you bypass the bell.
4. You then tried an ac psu with the bell. No constant ringing but the HIKVIS did not work. Bypass the bell and the HIKVIS works.
5. I suspect your dc power supply was rectified ac but not smoothed - please send me details of the dc psu.

(As an aside the ac bell is actually a buzzer repeatedly tapping the bell dome as the alternating current reverses every cycle).

https://www.hikvision.com/content/d...KB6003-WIP Wi-Fi Doorbell_V1.4.6_20170519.pdf

If you look at page 3 of 3 of the specification at link above it shows the HIKVIS could work with a mechanical chime. One can buy electronic chimes which would not work with the HIKVIS.

Your problem is caused by changing the mechanical chime for a mechanical bell/buzzer. The new bell introduces more resistance into the circuit than did the old chime. This deprives the HIKVIS of sufficient voltage to function correctly if at all. A video doorbell like the HIKVIS (but others are similarly designed) draw a current constantly from the power supply to operate their electronics. This current flows through the bell or chime.
In the case of the chime, its resistance is much lower than the bell so the HIKVIS receives sufficient voltage (16-24V) and current (0.6A). The current that is flowing normally in standby (0.6A) is not enough to 'ding' the chime - a chime will need over 1 Amp. It is only when the push on the HIKVIS is pressed is their a brief jump up to a larger current which flowing through the chime's coil causes the plunger to move and ding.

The bell/buzzer requires 0.17A at 24V to operate. The standby current of the HIKVIS is of the order of 0.6A - you can readily see that even in standby the HIKVIS will draw sufficient current for the bell to ring constantly. Even though the bell is for ac current, it will ring on a dc power supply fed via the HIKVIS because of the way the HIKVIS uses the current to power its electronics and charge an internal battery if it has one - some do not; it causes the current to change over time which the bell responds to by tinkling/ringing.

Easiest solution - buy a mechanical chime and run the HIKVIS off the ac psu.

This Dutchman has a successful set up with his HIKVIS using a Broan BK125 chime - see 1min 14 secs in he bought from Amazon.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNuqz99F--o

[automerge]1587283516[/automerge]
Postscript: Some of these video door bells do not have a battery inside which means they require an uninterrupted constant power supply. This means the battery-less ones will not work with any bell or chime wired in series with them. It is the battery which maintains power for the electronics while the push is pressed. There are two version of the Ring video door push for example - the older one is bigger and has a battery but the newer one is slimmer and does not have a battery.

Rickyk74 · Apr 19, 2020

marconi said:
Thank you for the information. To be sure I am on the same page as you:

1. You have a HIKVISION Value range video doorpush - the ac one.
2. With the dc psu and door original chime all is fine - but ugly.
3. With the dc psu and new ac bell there is a constant ringing. I am not clear whether the HIKVIS powered up and worked - did it? - I suspect not unless you bypass the bell.
4. You then tried an ac psu with the bell. No constant ringing but the HIKVIS did not work. Bypass the bell and the HIKVIS works.
5. I suspect your dc power supply was rectified ac but not smoothed - please send me details of the dc psu.

(As an aside the ac bell is actually a buzzer repeatedly tapping the bell dome as the alternating current reverses every cycle).

https://www.hikvision.com/content/dam/hikvision/products/HIKVISION/Video_Intercom_Products/Doorbells/Value_Series/6_Series_Video_Doorbells/DS-KB6003-WIP/Data_Sheet/UD04258B_Spec of DS-KB6003-WIP Wi-Fi Doorbell_V1.4.6_20170519.pdf

If you look at page 3 of 3 of the specification at link above it shows the HIKVIS could work with a mechanical chime. One can buy electronic chimes which would not work with the HIKVIS.

Your problem is caused by changing the mechanical chime for a mechanical bell/buzzer. The new bell introduces more resistance into the circuit than did the old chime. This deprives the HIKVIS of sufficient voltage to function correctly if at all. A video doorbell like the HIKVIS (but others are similarly designed) draw a current constantly from the power supply to operate their electronics. This current flows through the bell or chime.
In the case of the chime, its resistance is much lower than the bell so the HIKVIS receives sufficient voltage (16-24V) and current (0.6A). The current that is flowing normally in standby (0.6A) is not enough to 'ding' the chime - a chime will need over 1 Amp. It is only when the push on the HIKVIS is pressed is their a brief jump up to a larger current which flowing through the chime's coil causes the plunger to move and ding.

The bell/buzzer requires 0.17A at 24V to operate. The standby current of the HIKVIS is of the order of 0.6A - you can readily see that even in standby the HIKVIS will draw sufficient current for the bell to ring constantly. Even though the bell is for ac current, it will ring on a dc power supply fed via the HIKVIS because of the way the HIKVIS uses the current to power its electronics and charge an internal battery if it has one - some do not; it causes the current to change over time which the bell responds to by tinkling/ringing.

Easiest solution - buy a mechanical chime and run the HIKVIS off the ac psu.

This Dutchman has a successful set up with his HIKVIS using a Broan BK125 chime - see 1min 14 secs in he bought from Amazon.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNuqz99F--o

[automerge]1587283516[/automerge]
Postscript: Some of these video door bells do not have a battery inside which means they require an uninterrupted constant power supply. This means the battery-less ones will not work with any bell or chime wired in series with them. It is the battery which maintains power for the electronics while the push is pressed. There are two version of the Ring video door push for example - the older one is bigger and has a battery but the newer one is slimmer and does not have a battery.

Marconi, You sir are a gentleman. I do believe you have found my solution. I recall seeing that video about 18 months ago when i initially purchased the doorbell, but had never been able to find it again. I knew I had seen a guy from Holland with it working as I had wanted to set up. I do believe this is the solution.
Just to clarify some of your queries to check we’re on the same page;
1) Correct
2) Correct, the 24vdc psu was fatter than the original chimes transformer that i swapped it out for so the lid never fitted back correctly. Now I have the transformer fitted within the stud plasterboard wall, with access to the psu via a small plastic access hatch on the other side of the wall, which is the toilet so its all very neat. My idea was then just to have a tiny bell visible on the hallway side, allowing me to lose the original big chime box. Or to even have a bell within the stud wall itself and a speaker grille over the hole to allow sound out. All very neat and hidden. Ive added a couple of progress photos, you can see how much smaller the new bell is to the damage I have to make good for the old chime.
3) The Hikvis worked on both the dc psu and the ac psu both on 24v without the Grothe bell in the circuit, I never noticed if it worked with the bell in the circuit because once it started ringing with the breaker switched on I just tripped it again as it was annoying, and I knew it was wrong anyway.
4) There was a constant ringing with both the dc and ac psu’s at 24v with the bell connected.
5) The 0v-24v dc psu was the BG electrical CUB1 Bell Transformer, 240v-50Hz.

The Hik doorbell does not have an internal battery - as far as I am aware. Never read about it.

Thank you so much with your help, I think I need to buy the Broan chime, slightly larger than the Grothe Bell, but looks like it might work. Might even see if I can secrete this into the wall with a nice mesh grille.

Cheers,

Richard
[automerge]1587286980[/automerge]

Rickyk74 said:
Marconi, You sir are a gentleman. I do believe you have found my solution. I recall seeing that video about 18 months ago when i initially purchased the doorbell, but had never been able to find it again. I knew I had seen a guy from Holland with it working as I had wanted to set up. I do believe this is the solution.
Just to clarify some of your queries to check we’re on the same page;
1) Correct
2) Correct, the 24vdc psu was fatter than the original chimes transformer that i swapped it out for so the lid never fitted back correctly. Now I have the transformer fitted within the stud plasterboard wall, with access to the psu via a small plastic access hatch on the other side of the wall, which is the toilet so its all very neat. My idea was then just to have a tiny bell visible on the hallway side, allowing me to lose the original big chime box. Or to even have a bell within the stud wall itself and a speaker grille over the hole to allow sound out. All very neat and hidden. Ive added a couple of progress photos, you can see how much smaller the new bell is to the damage I have to make good for the old chime.
3) The Hikvis worked on both the dc psu and the ac psu both on 24v without the Grothe bell in the circuit, I never noticed if it worked with the bell in the circuit because once it started ringing with the breaker switched on I just tripped it again as it was annoying, and I knew it was wrong anyway.
4) There was a constant ringing with both the dc and ac psu’s at 24v with the bell connected.
5) The 0v-24v dc psu was the BG electrical CUB1 Bell Transformer, 240v-50Hz.

The Hik doorbell does not have an internal battery - as far as I am aware. Never read about it.

Thank you so much with your help, I think I need to buy the Broan chime, slightly larger than the Grothe Bell, but looks like it might work. Might even see if I can secrete this into the wall with a nice mesh grille.

Cheers,

Richard

In fact if you go on the Broan Nutone website they actually do many recessed doorbells that work on the same 16v power and transformer details as the one in the video. Ideal.