Joint cables inside back box?

[Mynamesmatt]

I have one double socket in my kitchen (its part up the upstairs ring) ...and i need to change it to three doubles


Is it ok to use the double back box that is currently in the wall, to joint and extend the ring (and place a double blank plate over) then chase down and fit three doubles?

If so what type of connectors should i use, wagos?

Be nice ...........

 

[jwb]

im a qualified electrician! the original socket is far too high above the worktops, just all needs re-jigging really

thanks guys!

also, i came across a lighting junction box under the floorboards.. all the terminals inside were being used by live/neturals and so someone has brought the earths OUTSIDE the jb and put them all into a chock block.. anyone ever seen this done? hmmmmmmmm

yep, many times; and possibly even worse, cpc's taken out of the jb and simply twisted together. either of these examples are not that uncommon in installations erected around the 1970's

 

[bollax]

You stole my thunder Lucas, there is no reason why a none serviceable joint shouldn't be plastered over within the safe zone ofc.

 

[Poptasticdave]

Yes, but they didn't bother to use strip connector - just twisted the CPC together. Ho hum.

Yup, tying together various threads, all the joints, CPC and current-carrying, in my parents' 1950's semi were twisted in "Screwits" in the lighting circuits on the switch-wires.

I get the impression that in times gone by this was "normal" and maybe not even against regs pre 15th Ed (the earliest I was qual'd to)?

 

[Dave 85]

Now excuse me If I'm wrong but everyone moaning about kitchen fitters drilling their cables, you do measure out a kitchen with all the units so you KNOW where they unit fixing lines are? If you don't then it's kinda your fault but if not no worries

Too right. All this 'kitchen fitters are stupid' talk is pretty sad if you ask me. Its a bit like electronics engineers spending their lives banging on about how stupid electricians are.
Kitchen fitting is more about skill and craftsmanship, electrical work is more about knowledge. So what.....

Personally I have no repsect for a sparky who prances around a building site pretending to be superior to other trades simply becasue his training involved a bit of GCSE level maths and physics.

​

 

[Dave 85]

deleted

 

[mazdaman]

I agree why is a so claimed 'qualified electrician' asking how to extend a circuit in a simple domestic situation????
There are many DIYer's who will know that one!! I some times worry about the quality of electricians these days.

 

[Miketwinny]

BS7671 App:15

 

[Miketwinny]

BS7671 App:15
Can only spur 1 double socket off another double socket which is on a RFC.
Will have to extend the ring useing acceptable connections or turn the double socket into a FCU and spur off that.

 

[Generator]

Can someone define a "maintenance free" connection, and how that's achieved? I've seen so many overheated joints -
choc blocks, ceramic twist on joints, taped up twisted wires, crimps, ........ The best place for a joint is at a socket outlet or spur unit, if at all possible. Soldering (properly) is the only other permanent form I can think of, and even that needs durable insulation ( how many years does it take before pvc tape goes all snotty? - quite a few but it's not permanent).
Through crimps do have different current ratings, and need the correct die to be foolproof. How often have you tugged on a wire and pulled it out of the crimp?

 

[randym68]

just to put my 2p in

mfctitch lol just shows you don't know what being electrician is about, Its not so much what you do but what you don't do......if you think its connecting wires.....explain power factors, and Zs please, as ive read all these posts and not one person has mentioned Zs, loads, lenth of RFC , volts drop , or IR tests, this is why you need to be qualified, & certified & competent person, not just any of these, certified to self inspect and test and notify. thats the difference. and to all, part p has very very restricted work they can complete, things like spurs, and bonding (its designed for associated trades such as plumbers) ....fully approved electrician, is a different thing. and understand much much more.

if anyone don't think so please explain how you balance a polyphase supply with old florescent lamps , ( no power factor correction) lol

 

[randym68]

maintenance free joint is one as the name suggests needs no inspection or maintenance. the most common way is insulated crimps, maintenance free has to satisfy 3 criteria

1. insulated no exposed conductive parts ( termination blocks have screw heads)
2. with stand thermal movement upto 70 degc without progressive deteriation of connection (excludes connection blocks, or any screwed type of termination)
3 ip4x so that when plastered or accidentally becomes wet ( ie steaming the paper off wall), will not allow conduction of current.

traditional way to do this is crimps, then covered with thermal setting tape, but now you have wagos (special which are water resistant), other types of bespoke fittings which don't allow water in or slippage of connections ( any 2391 inspector will testify surprisingly how much this happens)

 

[randym68]

question about the CPC (earth* ) outside of the junction box, this is covered by no conductive part shall be exposed, no exposed insulation can be outside of an accessable connection box. all sheathing must now terminate inside the box i think 17th new but i forget. ( was pulled up by NAPIT for this (was only about .5mm but was enough for him to say needed putting right) I know i can hear the electricians on here groaning... i suspect there was a little of the all inspectors have to find something wrong...the reason im told is its to do with under fault conditions PFC prospective fault current can reach upto 6000 A and could cause combustion, or be touched. i know i had similar feeling but thats the rules...

one of main reasons regs are so tight now is we load the circuits far far higher than we did... if anyone in any doubt how important this is, and potentially deadly here is a little tale

arrived at house electrics not working... found 2.5mm as a fuse (changed) gets worse...so its burnt out cable somewhere, continuity tested ok except 2 sockets not working, left it to confirm with landlord rewire, told tenant don't use all these sockets on ring, ( didn't listen i know i should have known) went back next day,

all the ring was gone, started lifting floor boards.....found a bridged ring, (hence tested ok)...and a floor board scorched through to within 5-6mm of surface full width for 2 meter lenth in the hallway 2 rings 2 lighting circuits and shower cable all melted together ...basically this was within minutes of causing fire in hallway, only the conductors vaporizing stopped it...deadly....this as far as we could tell had existed for 15 years no changes ...why did it suddenly happen, they increased load, aquarium and some pet hot box thing (3KW)..... that's why regs are greater why non electricians shouldn't do work, a family of 5 nearly died..........

 

[randym68]

In my opinion all this safe zone business is asking for trouble,and was poorly thought out,obviously by someone with no experience.I mean all of us at some point have probably hung a cupboard and where are the fixings?at the edges,which is exactly where the safe zones are going to be when cupboards are fitted from one end of a wall to the other,right?Also why call it a safe zone?Its an area for cables and therefore carries a risk if you drill into it,hardly safe then is it?the term may be easily understood by us sparks but its other people who cause the problems usually and they probably don,t understand the the safe zone.Anything where there is a risk should be called a danger zone,whats next green flags for on on isolators!Back in my early days cables ran in logical lines horizontally or vertically from an accessory and if it ran somewhere unexpected such as up the bedroom wall to get into the loft for upstairs lights then you ran it through a box and fitted a blank plate,to give a visual indication that a cable was there,no problem back then.Sorry about the rant but I,ve been up half the night trying to sort a major mess out for a mate,retirement! its worse than working.

not called safe zones, thats sparky slang, they called prescribed zones, and they dont just include vertical and horizontal from fitting, they include, wall to ceiling and internal wall to wall junctions for 150mm width....nice little business for me fixing these... i give out little pen voltage detectors to as many chippies and plumbers as i can to detect wires...i get them free from supplier..i know doing self out of business , but one day they will just leave a fixing live, without tripping it. and i like to sleep at night

 

[sbelec]

I agree about the waco's but would also suggest look at Hager maintenance free junction boxes and downlighter boxes -not employed by them in any way!!! They are not cheap but a waco should still technically be fitted in an enclosure and the cables clipped to avoid excess stain on the connection, remember that sheath should never be stripped except when protected by another method. The hager junction boxes have cable clamps built in so no strain can be put on the connection, normally 20amp 4 core for lighting or 3 core for 32 amp. The lighting unit is great for bathrooms where the fan and light are wired off the same switch and a permanent live for the fan as each core can have 4 wires into it. Have a look....
Hate it when I am told by unqualified warehouse staff that round junction boxes are still acceptable under the floor or hidden in roof spaces.

 

[HandySparks]

just to put my 2p in

...and to all, part p has very very restricted work they can complete, things like spurs, and bonding (its designed for associated trades such as plumbers)...

Thank you for your two pennyworth. We're certainly getting value for money here.