Just finished my first week subcontracting

[Tidy Max]

Yo team.

Got back last night from my first weeks subcontracting. Well, my first week subbing to a firm that i have never met dealt with. Ive done subbing to mates companies etc before.

So i quoted my day rate, £160pd 0.40ppm. They provided accommodation.

What is the standard amount of hours that are included on a day rate? The engineer i was with obviously liked to help people and do favours for free. So even though we would be finishing the job i had been hired to do by say 3/4pm. He wasn't ringing his office and booking off the job because he had already promised the clients we would look at aerial faults or fix gym equipment etc.

I questioned him on how many hours his company expects a standard day to be and he said 12 :| however i didn't believe him. I appreciated we all have done long days for firms and even if you do 12 hours a day, its never down in your contract/on the books for you to work a 60 hour week.

I have kept a site diary and a mileage log for every part of the job (it was 5 hotels in 4 days so there was lots of travelling). I am doing a couple of jobs this morning then i am going to ring their office and ask the office girl how many hours there standard day is. Theres a big difference between 160 for 8 hours (which is my rate) and 160 for 12 hours!

In hindsight i should of confirmed the amount of hours per day prior to commencing work. But it was just something i had not considered.

Any insight off you chaps as always is much appreciated. Whether it be a) shut up moaning and be grateful for the work or b) check the hours then bang on additional hours labour onto the invoice.

I am currently leaning to option B myself but obviously i don't want to shoot myself in the foot/**** anyone off!

 

[ED17]

I doubt that HMRC would see you as a subby.

 

[Tidy Max]

Sorry i don't follow?

 

[Welchyboy1]

Sounds like he's trying his luck, even agency days are usually 10 hours, oh and I bet he isn't doing anything for free, its probably just not through the company

 

[Tidy Max]

No he seriously is doing it for free. Ultimate busy body. Nice enough guy but my god he just wants to help people. Complains alot about his boss not understanding that the way to make money is to be sound with a customer which i'm sure we all agree with to SOME extent. Just not the lengths he is going to.

Working through lunch etc then staying on late seems to be the norm for him, which again we have all done. But it appears to be solely his choice to do so everyday then complain about it. Very strange. With the same chap again next week. Going to tally up my hours to do the invoice today its important what i specify my day rate hours to be as they will then be my accepted hours.

Cheers Welchy

 

[ED17]

We've had two HMRC inspections and both ended up with them telling us that we owed them a small fortune by paying subbies who should have been PAYE because they didn't meet these guidelines. [h=2]Employed or self-employed?[/h]In order to answer this question it is necessary to determine whether the person works under a contract of service (employees) or under a contract for services (self-employed, independent contractor). For tax and NICs purposes, there is no statutory definition of a contract of service or of a contract for services. What the parties call their relationship, or what they consider it to be, is not conclusive. It is the reality of the relationship that matters.
In order to determine the nature of a contract, it is necessary to apply common law principles. The courts have, over the years, laid down some factors and tests that are relevant, which is included in the overview below.
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

• Do they have to do the work themselves?
• Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
• Can they work a set amount of hours?
• Can someone move them from task to task?
• Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
• Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?

If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:

• Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
• Do they risk their own money?
• Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
• Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
• Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
• Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
• Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?

 

[Tidy Max]

Still don't see how that is relevant to my original post?

Either way i am not and should not be one of their employees. I am self employed and they have asked me to complete a certain task? I know people who are S/E and have only ever done work for one company in which i know HMRC would have an issue.

But all that aside, i am still missing your point?

I just re-read my original post and think you may have misunderstood ' my first week subbing' as in me saying this is my first week (of many) subbing to a firm. Which is not the case but i apologise for not being clear! They have asked me to do two weeks work as they pushed for time and i got recommended to them.

Cheers for taking the time to offer your input anyway.

So when you guys do use a genuine subby how many hours do you expect them to do in a day?

 

[ED17]

I wasn't meaning to have a go at you, it's HMRC who get my back up! Sorry if I came across the wrong way. We havn't used subbies for over a year now because of HMRC and their unrealistic guidelines. I just think that if HMRC read your post and saw that you are getting paid by the hour, paid mileage, paid for hotels etc they'd want the people paying you to stump up NIC & employers contributions.

 

[Rampantchilli]

8 hours a day, in my experience, is the accepted 'day'. Although some will certainly argue that. I've subbed to many a company and they have always expected a 40hour week, these days I'm employed, but my employer has some agency staff, and they do a standard 37hour week, but they are paid hourly.
if they are a good firm, I'd suggest you talk to who ever took you on and discuss the additional hours you've worked, may be agree on an increased day rate of 200 for next weeks work if they play up.
Have you turned down work for this work? If you haven't, suck it up, and learn the lesson, IF they won't pay the extra. If you have then pursue them for the extra money.

 

[Rampantchilli]

I wasn't meaning to have a go at you, it's HMRC who get my back up! Sorry if I came across the wrong way. We havn't used subbies for over a year now because of HMRC and their unrealistic guidelines. I just think that if HMRC read your post and saw that you are getting paid by the hour, paid mileage, paid for hotels etc they'd want the people paying you to stump up NIC & employers contributions.

My accountant always says you have your own van, tools, stock, and insurance, your free to do your own work, and you do your accounts, it doesn't matter how many companies you work for, so long as you can prove your independence.

If the HMRC. Try it on then I'd go to court to argue it, as they tend to rely on fear stopping people arguing, any decent lawyer would be able to defend you, assuming there is such a thing

 

[oldtimer]

HMRC like to see 3 separate streams of income if you are to be classed as self employed a lot of guys hide behind Ltd status but basically if you have one form of income then you should be PAYE and yes I hear what some guys accountants say but at the end of the day its you thats signs the tax return and you have to pay the fine

 

[Engineer54]

Still don't see how that is relevant to my original post?

Either way i am not and should not be one of their employees. I am self employed and they have asked me to complete a certain task? I know people who are S/E and have only ever done work for one company in which i know HMRC would have an issue.

But all that aside, i am still missing your point?

I just re-read my original post and think you may have misunderstood ' my first week subbing' as in me saying this is my first week (of many) subbing to a firm. Which is not the case but i apologise for not being clear! They have asked me to do two weeks work as they pushed for time and i got recommended to them.

Cheers for taking the time to offer your input anyway.

So when you guys do use a genuine subby how many hours do you expect them to do in a day?

I think you're being a bit naive here. You have been given what looks to me as a fairly well thought out guide, as to how the HMRC discriminate between those that are deemed to be ''Employee's'' and those that are deemed to be ''Self Employed'' Also the advise that has been given to you is based on Two such actual encounters with HMRC, that both resulted in large back payments being demanded!!

Take notice, as there is a quagmire of employment rules out there that can trip you up without you even knowing it !!

 

[oldtimer]

Yep I agree also just to add the reason why a lot of people get away with being classed as self employed either via a Ltd or sole proprietor is because HMRC do not have the resources to police this although they are getting a bit better on screwing down the regulations to make the agencies have to do due diligence .

So why not take you on as PAYE well basically its a tax dodge ie their not paying employers NI contributions and no doubt there will be plenty on here telling you its no big deal but if you get pulled in and you have only one source of income then hopefully you have savings.

Also you have two options here you can work for them and keep your head down or you could use it as a base to build a business and that way you dont have all your eggs in one basket. Early in the year I lost a letting agent as they tried to screw me down on cost that I could not afford so they dropped me 7 months on I have picked up the slack

 

[Tidy Max]

I totally appreciate that E54 however the large payments had to be paid by the companies not the subbys.

I have subbed to 3 companies in the past 30 days alone not including however many jobs i have completed direct for clients which if we are classing each client as a different revenue stream well than that would be around 10-15 different revenue streams in 30 days.

Regardless of all that..... i just wanted to know what people classed as the expected working day for a subby! It is absolutely beyond me why we are all discussing HMRC and the requirements for being employed or self employed! Again, i appreciate the advice and its good to know, i could always pass it on to the people who are paying me?!

As you mentioned i am being abit naive, what should i do differently in regards to this company? Demand they stick me on the payroll for a fortnight?#

Massive apologies if i am missing the point you are making, this could be one of those where it is going right over my head!

 

[Engineer54]

I think what ED17 was trying to tell you, is that if a company, any company employing you, are doing so on an hourly rate. If you're entitled to overtime payments, are being paid travel mileage and hotel accommodation is being paid by the company, then that doesn't constitute as being, or working as a self employed sub contractor in the eyes of HMRC...