Just finished my first week subcontracting

[Tidy Max]

Yo team.

Got back last night from my first weeks subcontracting. Well, my first week subbing to a firm that i have never met dealt with. Ive done subbing to mates companies etc before.

So i quoted my day rate, £160pd 0.40ppm. They provided accommodation.

What is the standard amount of hours that are included on a day rate? The engineer i was with obviously liked to help people and do favours for free. So even though we would be finishing the job i had been hired to do by say 3/4pm. He wasn't ringing his office and booking off the job because he had already promised the clients we would look at aerial faults or fix gym equipment etc.

I questioned him on how many hours his company expects a standard day to be and he said 12 :| however i didn't believe him. I appreciated we all have done long days for firms and even if you do 12 hours a day, its never down in your contract/on the books for you to work a 60 hour week.

I have kept a site diary and a mileage log for every part of the job (it was 5 hotels in 4 days so there was lots of travelling). I am doing a couple of jobs this morning then i am going to ring their office and ask the office girl how many hours there standard day is. Theres a big difference between 160 for 8 hours (which is my rate) and 160 for 12 hours!

In hindsight i should of confirmed the amount of hours per day prior to commencing work. But it was just something i had not considered.

Any insight off you chaps as always is much appreciated. Whether it be a) shut up moaning and be grateful for the work or b) check the hours then bang on additional hours labour onto the invoice.

I am currently leaning to option B myself but obviously i don't want to shoot myself in the foot/**** anyone off!

 

[Tidy Max]

Ahhhh right. Well they are paying me a day rate, any company i have subbed to before always wants to know day rate i am yet to come across one that has asked me for an hourly. My main issue is that this is the first company i have subbed to who i don't know.

Any other company i have always been friendly with them or known them from previous jobs i.e. i have no problem in ringing them up and sayin "what you playin at, wheres my money etc" lol.

Thanks for the advice regarding HMRC though.

 

[guest119]

40hrs is 5 days pay.
5 eights or 4 tens or 4 nines and a short friday, all the same.
You were asking for opinions, that is how I see it.
Labour only so no different from a cardie.

Boydy

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Not sure why this thread focussed so much on the IR35 regulations which is a problem for the hiring company, not the subbies themselves. As has been said, if a company hires labour on a self employed basis when they should be PAYE, it's not the fault of the labour, and all consequences fall on the hiring firm for fines and payment of Employers' NI.

@ the OP, sort out your terms and conditions before you start work next time, suck it up and learn the lesson.

Oh, and when I was a subby, a day was 10 hrs, a week was 50 hrs.

 

[ED17]

That's my fault. I see it as an employer, who as you rightly state would be responsible for all the costs. It would be a lot easier if HMRC either left us alone or got their act together and made it a level playing field for all.

 

[oldtimer]

That's my fault. I see it as an employer, who as you rightly state would be responsible for all the costs. It would be a lot easier if HMRC either left us alone or got their act together and made it a level playing field for all.

I agree with you but in the UK the employment agencies have a strong lobby group in Parliment plus they were instrumental in getting Thatcher to opt out of the European Employment Act so no level playing field for us as the agencies cashed in and the employee lost more rights . Also as for HMRC yep agencies should be held accountable but remember if they get caught they just fold the company and start up again leaving HMRC to persue the individual for some of the taxes

 

[rmc86uk]

It is the same at the firm who I have subbed to on a permanent basis for two years now. They pay us a day rate and we base it on 40 hours a week. They will then ask us to work a little extra each day but don't want to pay us for it as they say we are on a day rate. In their eyes working 8 hours or 10 hours is the same when on a day rate!

 

[ED17]

To answer the original question, I always used to get a 12 hour day when working away as a subby so that's what I paid mine (before HMRC stuck its oar in :tongue3: )

 

[oldtimer]

To answer the original question, I always used to get a 12 hour day when working away as a subby so that's what I paid mine (before HMRC stuck its oar in :tongue3: )

Can I ask what the HMRC did

 

[ED17]

Can I ask what the HMRC did

The first time they tried to claim around 12k in Employers NI & PAYE payments because they didn't see our subbies as subbies. We argued for around six months about it and they withdrew the claim. They returned about two years later and tried to claim 22k but failed again. They have silly ideas such as if a subby spends a day on site on price but has to trace a cable damaged by others then he should be paid as a subby for some of the day and PAYE for the fault finding!

 

[Jay Sparks]

When ever I do subby work, I charge them per hour. There is no set amount of hours but its usually 8/9 per day and at the end of each week, I send them an invoice for the total weekly hours x hourly rate. On my invoice is my UTR and they use this to pay 20% of my invoice total, to the very nice tax man. Then they pay me the rest. Its called the CIS scheme. They dont pay my mileage because this is deducted at the end of the year on my tax return. I also pay my own NI contributions. You need to invoice them for the total amount of hours you have done this week.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

When ever I do subby work, I charge them per hour. There is no set amount of hours but its usually 8/9 per day and at the end of each week, I send them an invoice for the total weekly hours x hourly rate. On my invoice is my UTR and they use this to pay 20% of my invoice total, to the very nice tax man. Then they pay me the rest. Its called the CIS scheme. They dont pay my mileage because this is deducted at the end of the year on my tax return. I also pay my own NI contributions. You need to invoice them for the total amount of hours you have done this week.

That's exactly what i used to do, and did very nicely out of it. CIS is a scheme of it's own.

I was on a day rate based on 10 hours. £10 an hour as a mate = £100 a day/ £500 a week. £15 an hour as a spark = £150 a day/ £750 a week minus 20%.

class 4 NI set up by Direct Debit.

Thousands out there doing the same.

Should they be on the books? Probably. But they won't be unless the system is dramatically changed and policed.

Tax return at end of tax year, deduct expenses (mileage/ accountant/ tools/ clothes/ personal allowance) and pocket the difference in the form of a rebate.

On the books now so all that is out of the window. Miss it sometimes. Not chasing the work though.

 

[Tidy Max]

Thanks Jay.

My issue there is i agreed a day rate with them prior to commencing the work. Not an hourly rate. It is my own inexperience that has let me down.

If your mileage is deducted at the end of the year on your tax return then who chooses what rate you are paid per mile? e.g. what is to stop you from claiming £1 a mile?

 

[ED17]

Thanks Jay.

My issue there is i agreed a day rate with them prior to commencing the work. Not an hourly rate. It is my own inexperience that has let me down.

If your mileage is deducted at the end of the year on your tax return then who chooses what rate you are paid per mile? e.g. what is to stop you from claiming £1 a mile?

It used to be 45p for the first 10,000 miles then 25p (I think) for the rest. You have to work out if it's better for you to claim mileage or claim running cost, you can't claim both!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

It used to be 45p for the first 10,000 miles then 25p (I think) for the rest. You have to work out if it's better for you to claim mileage or claim running cost, you can't claim both!

That's right. In the beginning I was claiming for tax, insurance, servicing, diesel etc..

But when I started doing 20K a year mileage I swapped over and just kept a mileage log in case I was ever investigated.

So in the beginning i was claiming say £500 insurance, £250 servicing, £200 tax, £1500 diesel, = £2450 tax deductible.

20K a year mileage = 10k @ 45ppm = £4,500 + 10K @ 25ppm = £2,500.

Total tax deductible motoring allowance = £7000.

No brainer.

 

[Englishman]

We've had two HMRC inspections and both ended up with them telling us that we owed them a small fortune by paying subbies who should have been PAYE because they didn't meet these guidelines. [h=2]Employed or self-employed?[/h]In order to answer this question it is necessary to determine whether the person works under a contract of service (employees) or under a contract for services (self-employed, independent contractor). For tax and NICs purposes, there is no statutory definition of a contract of service or of a contract for services. What the parties call their relationship, or what they consider it to be, is not conclusive. It is the reality of the relationship that matters.
In order to determine the nature of a contract, it is necessary to apply common law principles. The courts have, over the years, laid down some factors and tests that are relevant, which is included in the overview below.
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

• Do they have to do the work themselves?
• Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
• Can they work a set amount of hours?
• Can someone move them from task to task?
• Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
• Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?

Yes to all of those. Been agency CIS for over 8 months with a major housing association.

*******s.