Just priced my first rewire, why is it so cheap?

[Tidy Max]

Hello everyone!

Just priced my first domestic rewire and i appear to be pretty darn cheap. I spent all of yesterday doing the quote, couldn't believe what it came out at. So i slept on it and have been back through it all again this morning and i can't seem to find where i have gone wrong.

I really wanted to avoid starting the old 'how much for a rewire' thread as other than the fact its been done to the death nobody can price a rewire without going seeing the job!

Anyway,
2 x men x 4 days
250m 2.5 t+e
150 1.5 t+e
100 3core 1.5t+e
10way wylex CU
all the breakers + 1xrcbo for appliance circuit
tails
bonding conductors
+ a contingent for the house being lived in

The client asked me to price the job WITHOUT fittings and the price came to £2200. I then priced up with the second fix being completed also just with basic white fittings and even then with the additional labour it only came to £2600.

The house is a medium sized council house, 2 up 2 down but large kitchen/garage. I am not making good after as she is getting plasterer/painter and decorator.

Of the jobs i've been pricing the passed couple of months a rewire should be very straight forward to quote but i can't help but feel i'm missing something!

Any help/advice would be much appreciated. Maybe i am just not putting enough profit on, not only do i not want to do myself out of money but i don't want to be massively under cutting other sparks too.

I charge 360 a day per 2 man team (inc myself!) and the other lad gets 150 a day.

Any advice as always is much appreciated!

 

[Des 56]

I like your 2 x 2.5mm method I have done so myself and it is the best way

I am no businessman by any stretch of the imagination and consequently I don't use a sheet maths to price a job
I look at the job,get an instant idea what the time and materials cost will be,then pluck the figure out of my head

It keeps me poor, but it saves my time and stress levels for more important things in life

 

[Guitarist]

I thought 20amp may be cutting a bit fine to be honest. Thinking about it isn't the way though i know, calculating it is! But i am only in the initial stages of the quote. I was avoiding the 4mm radial just because of linking the terminals out with 4mm. I thought i could pull 2 x 2.5mm to the grid switch, in one side, link out with 2.5s (using the switches with the fuse carriers) Then back out the other side! I personally wouldn't class that as a radial using parallels because to me its the equivalent of having a ring with 5 x SFCU on it.

However, i'm sure you do know a lot more than me and i have probably just opened a can of worms and i am probably about to get a serious chunk taken out of me by you lot!

Regardless i'd rather not have the grid switch and i would rather run a separate ring with SFCU above the work tops and flex outlets behind the appliances but the client wants a grid switch and what the client wants the client gets!.....(pretty much).

You are right about the lighting circuits. I suggested running in cables but she said she didn't want it doing because she had no idea what was happening with the back yard. I should really just pull in a cable and leave both ends coiled in the ceiling and not mention it until i get a phone call to go back and do the lighting rather than pretty much bodging it onto an existing circuit. Cheers Dave

Just bear in mind that some built-ins (if there are to be any) don't even give you room for that option. Single sockets, reached through the back of an adjoining cupboard and switched from above is sometimes the way to go.

 

[davethsparky]

I thought 20amp may be cutting a bit fine to be honest. Thinking about it isn't the way though i know, calculating it is! But i am only in the initial stages of the quote. I was avoiding the 4mm radial just because of linking the terminals out with 4mm. I thought i could pull 2 x 2.5mm to the grid switch, in one side, link out with 2.5s (using the switches with the fuse carriers) Then back out the other side! I personally wouldn't class that as a radial using parallels because to me its the equivalent of having a ring with 5 x SFCU on it.

However, i'm sure you do know a lot more than me and i have probably just opened a can of worms and i am probably about to get a serious chunk taken out of me by you lot!

Regardless i'd rather not have the grid switch and i would rather run a separate ring with SFCU above the work tops and flex outlets behind the appliances but the client wants a grid switch and what the client wants the client gets!.....(pretty much).

You are right about the lighting circuits. I suggested running in cables but she said she didn't want it doing because she had no idea what was happening with the back yard. I should really just pull in a cable and leave both ends coiled in the ceiling and not mention it until i get a phone call to go back and do the lighting rather than pretty much bodging it onto an existing circuit. Cheers Dave

I think I may be out of touch with modern thinking here a bit, I don't get this seperate ring for appliances and sockets thing really. Its 2 up 2 down house, how much load do you think there is going to be in that place? A radial for the upstairs sockets a radial for the downstairs sockets and a ring or radial for the kitchen depending on the number of appliances.
How big is this kitchen? surely there won't be room for that many appliances in this size of house. I only know of one house where they've had trouble with overload on the kitchen ring, but it serves kitchen and utility with 2 x fridge, 2 x freezer, wash machine, tumble dryer, ice machine, dishwasher, microwave, kettle, steam iron, water softener, waste disposal. and the overload problem only occured when the hired help came in and started the dishwasher, tumble dryer, washing machine plugged the iron in to heat up and started the vacuuming!

I don't see that circuit as being a ring main in the normal way as it doesn't form a ring, its two cables going from point A (CU) to point B (grid switch) carrying an equal share of the current. A ring is designed to basically be a circle around which the loads are evenly distributed.
How would you carry out the testing on the circuit you are proposing?

There was once a 2 metre maximum distance rule with pictures in the OSG which could be used against people insisting on those awful grid switches but sadly it doesn't appear to be in the current edition.

my reasoning behind the lighting circuit is that the outside lights will get water in them at some point in time, show being especially good at filling outside lights with water. I personally wouldn't like that callout on a cold snowy evening when an outside light trips the kitchen lights off rather than just its own circuit as in my opinion no lights in the kitchen = sort it out straight away, no garden lights = less urgent.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

I wouldn't know mate ive never given them the chance. Went sorting out another sparks (NIC registered) terrible mess and he had fitted a BG board, and it was the most terrible piece of crap ever, you could of wrapped your buttys in the plastic it was that thin.

Whenever i do quotes i always give the customer abit of a lecture about crap gear and that my labour costs will probably be cheaper than the next mans but i refuse to install crap because its complete and utter false economy so my price may come abit higher but to bear in mind that it's worth it. This strategy has paid off so far!

Well I have fitted a couple of these now, and don't know what you are talking about. BG boards are great and VERY competitively priced. Miles better than a lot on the market now.

Oh, and I'm not the only one on here who likes them either, and we can't all be wrong.

 

[Sparks1962]

In the '80's CEF's Proteus range was pretty awful but lots of people used them....but not me. I stick with Crabtree or Mk for house bashing..

 

[timbobelfast]

Don't forget if it is a TT system to allow 2 days for finding a stable Ra.....lol

 

[VoltzElectrical]

In the '80's CEF's Proteus range was pretty awful but lots of people used them....but not me. I stick with Crabtree or Mk for house bashing..

Crabtree yes, MK = No Way!

 

[Sparks1962]

A TT system in Bolton???

 

[Sparks1962]

Well ok, the breakers all pull over to the right if you don't hold 'em when you do the bus terminals up but Multi-Kontact aren't that bad!

 

[Tidy Max]

I think I may be out of touch with modern thinking here a bit, I don't get this seperate ring for appliances and sockets thing really. Its 2 up 2 down house, how much load do you think there is going to be in that place? A radial for the upstairs sockets a radial for the downstairs sockets and a ring or radial for the kitchen depending on the number of appliances.
How big is this kitchen? surely there won't be room for that many appliances in this size of house. I only know of one house where they've had trouble with overload on the kitchen ring, but it serves kitchen and utility with 2 x fridge, 2 x freezer, wash machine, tumble dryer, ice machine, dishwasher, microwave, kettle, steam iron, water softener, waste disposal. and the overload problem only occured when the hired help came in and started the dishwasher, tumble dryer, washing machine plugged the iron in to heat up and started the vacuuming!

I don't see that circuit as being a ring main in the normal way as it doesn't form a ring, its two cables going from point A (CU) to point B (grid switch) carrying an equal share of the current. A ring is designed to basically be a circle around which the loads are evenly distributed.
How would you carry out the testing on the circuit you are proposing?

There was once a 2 metre maximum distance rule with pictures in the OSG which could be used against people insisting on those awful grid switches but sadly it doesn't appear to be in the current edition.

my reasoning behind the lighting circuit is that the outside lights will get water in them at some point in time, show being especially good at filling outside lights with water. I personally wouldn't like that callout on a cold snowy evening when an outside light trips the kitchen lights off rather than just its own circuit as in my opinion no lights in the kitchen = sort it out straight away, no garden lights = less urgent.

I definitely agree with you on the lighting circuit. It was nothing more than lazy on my part suggesting otherwise! I personally install a serperate circuit (not necessarily a ring) for the kitchen appliances because in my limited experience i have found them to be the main RCD nuisance tripping issue. So an unprotected way with an rcbo in is the way to go for me.

I also appreciate what you are saying about the parallel paths/ring main only feeding 1 point (is it one point? or is it 5 because of the feeds coming off? or is it 10 because of the flex outlets? another argument that we could go round in circles on!).

As previously mentioned the client has ALOT of kitchen gadgets, and has specified she wants a minimum of 8 sockets (4 2gs) across one side of the kitchen, the other side has the immersion, fridge, freezer, washer, dryer, dish washer). The price for a 20a and a 32a breaker is the same, the only issue is the additional 6/7m run of 2.5 to the grid that would be the extra cost.

As for carrying out the testing i would of course test it as a ring? How else would you test 2 x 2.5 cables being supplied from the same OCPD that were interconnected? Do you appreciate what i am saying about the grid switch having effectively 5 x SFCU in it?

@VoltzElectrical

By all means if you/everyone who rates them wants to fit them likes them then crack on. But in my (already admitted) limited experience i have found them to be lacking in the quality department. I have come across 3 BG boards all of which felt very flimsy......when i tightened the screws on them they didn't even crush the extra length i had left on the cables into shape....! Lol,. joking aside though i did think they were pretty crappy quality. My comment about them being the most terrible piece of crap ever may have been abit harsh. I was too busy isolating the circuits that had just electrocuted the client to make a serious professional judgement. I did kind of sum up the whole job then look at the brand on the CU and think well thats just fantastic, High Price, Bad Workmanship, Electrocuted Client, and a BG board! Either way, i certainly didn't mean to offend you Voltz. But i still won't be buying one anytime soon.

If a customer is willing to pay for a recognised brand then that is what i will install. I have an issue with customers who will pay 10/15 quid a designer socket, 70/100 quid a designer lamp then want to install a brand of CU that i personally don't rate.

 

[telectrix]

hmm. BG are far better build quality than MK. the only gripe i've had with them is the loctite on the threads of the earth and N bar screws.

 

[Sparks1962]

Well I can't comment on that as I've never fitted one, but aren't they the ones with a built in spirit level? lol

 

[davethsparky]

I definitely agree with you on the lighting circuit. It was nothing more than lazy on my part suggesting otherwise! I personally install a serperate circuit (not necessarily a ring) for the kitchen appliances because in my limited experience i have found them to be the main RCD nuisance tripping issue. So an unprotected way with an rcbo in is the way to go for me.

I also appreciate what you are saying about the parallel paths/ring main only feeding 1 point (is it one point? or is it 5 because of the feeds coming off? or is it 10 because of the flex outlets? another argument that we could go round in circles on!).

As previously mentioned the client has ALOT of kitchen gadgets, and has specified she wants a minimum of 8 sockets (4 2gs) across one side of the kitchen, the other side has the immersion, fridge, freezer, washer, dryer, dish washer). The price for a 20a and a 32a breaker is the same, the only issue is the additional 6/7m run of 2.5 to the grid that would be the extra cost.

As for carrying out the testing i would of course test it as a ring? How else would you test 2 x 2.5 cables being supplied from the same OCPD that were interconnected? Do you appreciate what i am saying about the grid switch having effectively 5 x SFCU in it?
/QUOTE]

Firstly immersion heater, on a new install/rewire it goes on its own circuit everytime, no question. The rest of them you'll just have to use your own judgement. I doubt very much the combined current of the sockets and appliances in the kitchen at any one time will exceed 32amps.

I know i'm not the best at transferring the thoughts in my head into written words but I think it would help you to see what I am trying to say if you consider an upscaled version of this.
You have a circuit coming from your CU as 2 x 2.5 cables terminating at a single enclosure containing 5 protective devices, you say this is a ring and will operate as a ring and be tested as a ring.
Compare this to a circuit coming from a DB as 2 x 25mm cables terminating at a single enclosure containing 5 protective devices (another DB). Is this a ring?

I know 4.0mm would be ridiculous in one of those switches so wouldn't contemplate that but if I felt it needed more than a 20amp circuit i'd be looking at 2 x 2.5 radials personally, either 16 or 20 amps.

And I always fit RCBO's for every circuit that needs RCD protection, in my opinion having 2 RCD's doesn't give adequate protection against the problems of nuisance tripping. And yes I have lost a couple of CU changes because of this stance, but i've also won a couple based on this after explaining the pro's and cons of each way in as unbiased a fashion as I can.


I am hoping someone else will give their stance on this soon

 

[davethsparky]

Oh and I prefer to fit Contactum metalclad CCU's

 

[VoltzElectrical]

I definitely agree with you on the lighting circuit. It was nothing more than lazy on my part suggesting otherwise! I personally install a serperate circuit (not necessarily a ring) for the kitchen appliances because in my limited experience i have found them to be the main RCD nuisance tripping issue. So an unprotected way with an rcbo in is the way to go for me.

I also appreciate what you are saying about the parallel paths/ring main only feeding 1 point (is it one point? or is it 5 because of the feeds coming off? or is it 10 because of the flex outlets? another argument that we could go round in circles on!).

As previously mentioned the client has ALOT of kitchen gadgets, and has specified she wants a minimum of 8 sockets (4 2gs) across one side of the kitchen, the other side has the immersion, fridge, freezer, washer, dryer, dish washer). The price for a 20a and a 32a breaker is the same, the only issue is the additional 6/7m run of 2.5 to the grid that would be the extra cost.

As for carrying out the testing i would of course test it as a ring? How else would you test 2 x 2.5 cables being supplied from the same OCPD that were interconnected? Do you appreciate what i am saying about the grid switch having effectively 5 x SFCU in it?

@VoltzElectrical

By all means if you/everyone who rates them wants to fit them likes them then crack on. But in my (already admitted) limited experience i have found them to be lacking in the quality department. I have come across 3 BG boards all of which felt very flimsy......when i tightened the screws on them they didn't even crush the extra length i had left on the cables into shape....! Lol,. joking aside though i did think they were pretty crappy quality. My comment about them being the most terrible piece of crap ever may have been abit harsh. I was too busy isolating the circuits that had just electrocuted the client to make a serious professional judgement. I did kind of sum up the whole job then look at the brand on the CU and think well thats just fantastic, High Price, Bad Workmanship, Electrocuted Client, and a BG board! Either way, i certainly didn't mean to offend you Voltz. But i still won't be buying one anytime soon.

If a customer is willing to pay for a recognised brand then that is what i will install. I have an issue with customers who will pay 10/15 quid a designer socket, 70/100 quid a designer lamp then want to install a brand of CU that i personally don't rate.

Not offended, but you are blaming a very good product which in my experience doesn't warrant it. They are competitively priced and do the job. If installed with the proper tools (i.e. not impact drivers or pozi drivers, like ANY board) either a plus/minus driver or flat head, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Spirit level? I wouldn't trust it even if it is a nice gesture. Immaterial IMO.

Tel, I can't recall the loctite that you mention.