Kitchen electrical work

[AL3XREID]

I am looking for pro advice on kitchen electrical installation.

Currently in the process of old kitchen being replaced, cancelled registered electrician that I had initially booked up after joiner handling the the job said he could get an electrician in sooner and get it signed off. Which I initially thought was perfect

but now having second thoughts, from what I have been told from other fully trained electricians with regards to work being carried out, regulations etc.

The job at hand was to fit as follows -



Fit small 2 way fuse box for kitchen sockets and cooker. ( Decided to go with this to keep costs down, as main consumer unit would need to replaced due to age.)
Alter cooker point so that it is sunk in wall and there is a connection point for the double oven.
Add sparker socket for hob Add tumble dryer switched fused spur and socket.
Add dishwasher fused spur and socket Testing and Certification.

I have added a picture of current work

 

[James]

although other types of conduit gland are available, i have never seen one that is not visible from the outside of the enclosure.

 

[AL3XREID]

It's hard to tell from the picture whether the flexible conduit is glanded correctly to the back box or not. If the flexible conduit was fixed to the wall properly then it might well be suitable - though indicative of a "kitchen fitter" job rather than a well planned electrical installation.

Electrical installation often gets overlooked in kitchen installs unfortunately, and once units are in then the options for running cabling are limited. I've seen some very expensive kitchens with much worse electrical installation where it isn't immediately visible.

The main thing will be to ensure you get a certificate for the work (Probably a Minor Works Certificate), as that will at least show that the work was tested as safe.

It's hard to tell from the picture whether the flexible conduit is glanded correctly to the back box or not. If the flexible conduit was fixed to the wall properly then it might well be suitable - though indicative of a "kitchen fitter" job rather than a well planned electrical installation.

Electrical installation often gets overlooked in kitchen installs unfortunately, and once units are in then the options for running cabling are limited. I've seen some very expensive kitchens with much worse electrical installation where it isn't immediately visible.

The main thing will be to ensure you get a certificate for the work (Probably a Minor Works Certificate), as that will at least show that the work was tested as safe.

I was informed by the electrician he couldn't certificate the work, due to the consumer unit not inline with 18th edition standards, which would be a fail.

Couple of the other quotes from other electricians said the exact same thing if they were to do the work. Only way around it to certificate it would be install a new consumer unit, which wasn't in my budget.

 

[James]

oh, scary stuff.

if you cant write a certificate in good faith, you cant do the work.

his installation should meet current standards.
if it doesn't, then it should be agreed with the customer and marked on the cert as a deviation.

would you have a gas boiler installed if the gas fitter said, ok i will do it but i cant write a safety cert for the install because there is something wrong that i can't be arsed to fix?

 

[Dartlec]

I was informed by the electrician he couldn't certificate the work, due to the consumer unit not inline with 18th edition standards, which would be a fail.

Couple of the other quotes from other electricians said the exact same thing if they were to the work.

Interesting - I was going to comment that Part P makes doing unsuitable work illegal, even if it's not notifiable, but then realised you are in Scotland so things are rather different (though not laxer to my understanding)

Out of interest, what was the part that didn't comply? RCD protection?

There are usually ways to ensure that the bit they have done is compliant, and issue a certificate for their bit with a suitable description of the work and any exclusions.

 

[jakew009]

Interesting - I was going to comment that Part P makes doing unsuitable work illegal, even if it's not notifiable, but then realised you are in Scotland so things are rather different (though not laxer to my understanding)

Out of interest, what was the part that didn't comply? RCD protection?

There are usually ways to ensure that the bit they have done is compliant, and issue a certificate for their bit with a suitable description of the work and any exclusions.

I think the original plan by the electrician was to put in an additional 2 way CU for the kitchen presumably for the reasons you allude to, but kitchen cowboy declared this unnecessary (and probably spurred it all off the lighting circuit for good measure.)

 

[AL3XREID]

oh, scary stuff.

if you cant write a certificate in good faith, you cant do the work.

his installation should meet current standards.
if it doesn't, then it should be agreed with the customer and marked on the cert as a deviation.

would you have a gas boiler installed if the gas fitter said, ok i will do it but i cant write a safety cert for the install because there is something wrong that i can't be arsed to fix?

 

[AL3XREID]

I do agree about the certificate, i thought it was a bit strange, regardless of the type of consumer unit i have.

The couple other quotes I had done prior to install by this guy, said the exact same thing if there were to go ahead with the job. So are they all on fiddle locally ??

The consumer unit i have, does need replaced as it isn't up to todays standards, that I do know. The electrician that done the job did say to me there was enough leeway in the system to fit what I needed done rather than fitting two way. But how would I know any different as I ain't the electrician.

I appreciate all your feedback, I have clearly made the wrong decision agreeing to have this guy do the work.

 

[Dartlec]

I do agree about the certificate, i thought it was a bit strange, regardless of the type of consumer unit i have.

The couple other quotes I had done prior to install by this guy, said the exact same thing if there were to go ahead with the job. So are they all on fiddle locally ??

The consumer unit i have, does need replaced as it isn't up to todays standards, that I do know. The electrician that done the job did say to me there was enough leeway in the system to fit what I needed done rather than fitting two way. But how would I know any different as I ain't the electrician.

I appreciate all your feedback, I have clearly made the wrong decision agreeing to have this guy do the work.

Probably doesn't help, but I've seen worse on kitchen fitting jobs even in England since Part P came in...

The point of the certificate is more to show that the new wiring was actually tested to ensure that it wasn't damaged during installation, earth loop impendances are suitably low, etc to ensure that whatever protection you do have will trip in the case of a fault. The fact that things work is no guarantee of that. (Leaving aside the issue that new work *should* be installed to the current regulations)

It is possible to have a "safe" installation that doesn't meet current regulations in every particular, but if no testing was done then there is no way for you to know if that is the case.

Looking forward, one option may be to get the original electrician you had planned to get in to do an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) on the existing installation so at least you know the state of things - That would also allow him to give an accurate quote on a new consumer unit as much of the testing work is replicated.

 

[AL3XREID]

Thanks again. Just don't understand why he wouldn't want to certificate the work he done and do a proper job, regardless of the issue with the consumer unit. Its not like it was a pittance i paid for the work.The best of it is, hes back out tomorrow to sort out the issues i have flagged up. What hope do i have on it being rectified!!!...

I'm clearly going to have to do something eventually, but sadly for now I have maxed out finances and then some on this kitchen install and appliances, so have no extra to get someone else out just now.

Just can't believe this, what a bloody disaster!

 

[Red Tony]

If it were me doing it I'd have wall mounted everything and instead of sockets I'd have put fcu's in and put fuses from plugs in to suit and labelled them up in case were ever disconnected in future.
If a jobs worth doing its worth doing right.

 

[Dartlec]

Thanks again. Just don't understand why he wouldn't want to certificate the work he done and do a proper job, regardless of the issue with the consumer unit. Its not like it was a pittance i paid for the work.The best of it is, hes back out tomorrow to sort out the issues i have flagged up. What hope do i have on it being rectified!!!...

I'm clearly going to have to do something eventually, but sadly for now I have maxed out finances and then some on this kitchen install and appliances, so have no extra to get someone else out just now.

Just can't believe this, what a bloody disaster!

Unfortunately I don't know the Scottish system well enough to say whether there is any comeback or route you can follow on the certificate side when you have had work done. It may be worth finding out if he is registered with any of the national bodies.

In England, installing a new domestic socket without RCD protection would likely not meet Part P of the Building Regulations, which is a statutory requirement, unlike the wiring regulations (confusingly) and policed by the Local Building Control or HSE. Unfortunately it is policed poorly and prosecutions for breaches are rare and usually only in extreme circumstances.

Sockets without RCD protection that are existing do not *have* to be brought up to standard (they can and should be when possible), which is where the wriggle room often occurs for kitchen fitters or people looking to do as little work as possible.

For now it is probably best to ensure when he is back on site that he sorts the issues you've flagged - and proves to your satisfaction that he has tested it so that it is 'safe'. He may be reasonable if approached in the right manner with your concerns - which would be calm but firm on what you consider good workmanship. If the threat of witholding money is no longer available to you then this may be a better option than angry confrontation.

If he isn't prepared to complete a certificate for just the work he has done then ask why - and perhaps try asking for a 'schedule of test results' for the circuits that have been affected at least. That would mean plugging in a proper tester and testing things like:

Earth Fault Loop Impedance Zs
Ring Continuity (if applicable) - This is an important one that can easily be messed up by any work on the circuit.
Insulation Resistance
RCD testing (I suspect this is the sticking point for not wanting to issue a certificate)

If he is unable to carry out those tests, then I'm afraid he is not an electrician of any type, but a handyman who should not have been doing the work, whatever he charged.

It might be useful to see a picture of your consumer unit. There is a wide range between 'safe' but non compliant work and dangerous bodges and it's not immediately possible to tell which your situation is.

I'd say that nothing in the photos you've shown strays past poor workmanship into definitely dangerous, though obviously it is hard to be definitive in such a situation

 

[AL3XREID]

I have added a photo of my existing consumer unit.