Kitchen Electrics and the law

[Engineer54]

i have 50k cover and up to now they are fully fighting it and sending a solicitor to court and i am just a witness. now it is fast track they say they have to make sure i have a 51% chance of winning or they wont cover me

What are they going to do then, pay the claimant 8000 quid?? Your insured, you have payed the premium which they have accepted. Unless you have done something outside of that to which your insured, they have to cover you!!! If you have told us everything correctly, and you have touched nothing on the electrical installation bar plug appliances into existing socket outlets then your insurance solicitors, will definitely be fighting your case and asking for damages too. I don't understand the eagerness of defending you in the small claims court, and the reluctance outside of that system. The case remains exactly the same???
Only the court costs would differ!!!

It seems you were having trouble with this client while you were still actually working on his property installing the new kitchen, What was that all about ?? Has your client also gone after his electrician?? You may need to call that electrician as a witness, he is the only person that can explain the state of the kitchen electrics, at the time of your working in the clients property. He should also have completed a PIR and notified his work. Do you or your insurance solicitors have a copy of that PIR??

 

[jo4nny8]

Ahhh but thats the whole point why im worried. Legal expenses cover only covers the cost of fighting the claim. if the other side wins, any money she is awarded is payable directly by my company (im ltd) and its not coverable by any legal expenses insurance.

Thats why i am so worried.

I cant call the other electrician as a witness as he is both involved in her side of the claim (he held our installer up for 2 days and the customer is also claiming we took longer than was suggested) and also he is acting as her expert witness to state we havent fitted the kitchen correctly. if someone can show me how to upload a pdf to here i can show you his report you you know what he is saying is wrong

 

[telectrix]

just seen your last post. you are a limited company? worst scenario is to liquidate the ltd. co. untill then fight her tooth and nail. and since when has an electrician been an expert on kitchen fitting?

 

[SimpleSimon]

Any idea if the electrician and claimant know each other before the incident? Ask for an independant PIR from her/lawyers. Get an independent sparky to see what the actual problem is.

I wouldn't rule out that the electrician and clients are friends and they're in it together.

 

[Engineer54]

This gets weirder and Weider, .....How can an electrician be called upon as an expert witness for fitted kitchen cabinets???

Someone tell him how to upload his pdf file please, ...This i just ''must'' see!! lol!!!

 

[Engineer54]

Good idea Simon, your not as simple as you make out to be ...lol!!!

As Simon suggests, ask for an independent PIR, this will, if proved different from the other electricians PIR, discredit him in his honesty and as being ANY form of expert witness...

 

[SimpleSimon]

Thanks mate.
Another point is to find out if this person is signed onto a competent persons scheme. In the eyes of the law if they're not, they're not deemed as competent to carry the work.

 

[MFHEng]

Ahhh but thats the whole point why im worried. Legal expenses cover only covers the cost of fighting the claim. if the other side wins, any money she is awarded is payable directly by my company (im ltd) and its not coverable by any legal expenses insurance.

Thats why i am so worried.

I cant call the other electrician as a witness as he is both involved in her side of the claim (he held our installer up for 2 days and the customer is also claiming we took longer than was suggested) and also he is acting as her expert witness to state we havent fitted the kitchen correctly. if someone can show me how to upload a pdf to here i can show you his report you you know what he is saying is wrong

Can you send the PDF to the email adress I pm 'd you so I can see what was put on the report

 

[RODDERS80]

upload it to megaupload and post the link here

 

[jo4nny8]

ive sent it to mfheng. would rather it not be posted on an open forum so it cant be used against me

 

[telectrix]

good thinking.

 

[Mark_Burgess]

So you didn't touch the electrics, the electrician held up the work so you were late in completing the kitchen, she went off on one which involved you calling the police whilst trying to do the job.

If I were you i'd say 'See you in Court' I dont think there is anything to worry about, as others have said she seems like a chancer and if possible get the police incident report, that would help you out in court.

 

[mattmoo1974]

Did you move any of his sockets etc etc? Surely hes got to prove you ve played with the electrics in any way? Even harder if you have nt supplyed him with any Cert for electrical work.
You say hes taking you to court for "a few items". Is it all stemed on the electrics? Surely a copy of your quote for the job would clear all this up? As its in your terms you dont do any electrical work.
Hes trying it on mate. All a sparky can do is Advise on work that needs doing. I think your customer has realised hes going to have to rip his kitchen out to get the wiring sorted and hes trying to get you to cough up for it.

 

[brucelee]

Yes he sounds like he is trying it on mate
tell him see you in court

 

[mattmoo1974]

Yes he sounds like he is trying it on mate
tell him see you in court

Its a She and we all no women are mental
And i know my misses will never look on here so i can get away with saying it

 

[Paul.M]

why, you decided on a career change to kitchen fitter?

So you didn't touch the electrics, the electrician held up the work so you were late in completing the kitchen, she went off on one which involved you calling the police whilst trying to do the job.

If I were you i'd say 'See you in Court' I dont think there is anything to worry about, as others have said she seems like a chancer and if possible get the police incident report, that would help you out in court.

Hes trying it on mate. All a sparky can do is Advise on work that needs doing. I think your customer has realised hes going to have to rip his kitchen out to get the wiring sorted and hes trying to get you to cough up for it.

Spot on. You can just imagine the conversation.
Sparky:- You should have had the kitchen rewired before the kitchen is fitted, its old colours and needs doing soon before your house burns down (more work for me, lovely)

Home owner:- Can't afford to have it ripped out and put back, I know I'll blame the kitchen fitter for every little thing, take him to court and he can pay for it.

Stick to your guns mate, you've done nothing wrong.

 

[brucelee]

lol sorry matt teach me to read all the post lol i read it other day and just skipped to your post today l

 

[Paul.M]

Don't know how Telectrix quote got in there? Disregard it.

 

[mattmoo1974]

Mate it was on the first page when i started writing my post and page 6 by the time i finished it lol

 

[terminator]

Be interesting to see what MFHEng thinks after he's read email/pdf (without revealing content).

 

[BlueToBits]

The problem with discussing issues like this on public forums like this is that any revelation that is written in them can be used as easily against you as for you. But I suspect that horse has already run.

So. I humbly offer my 10ps worth m'lud and I'' stick my neck out and talk about things Im emminently unqualified to do.

The electrical regulations as such don't apply as you have not undertake any electrical work and, I think, are confusing the issue.

I suspect the key point here is this:

...After explaining to the customer that we had not charged for this and were performing NO electrics within the installation he would have to pay for the remedials required and as such we suggested that this other electrician is best to do the work as he is already on site. The customer agreed and we left it at that....

She would have to deny this. There's not a lot you can do if she does (word against word) apart from the fact that your terms and conditions support this discussion could have taken place as they clearly state the you do not do electrics. AFAIK when T&Cs conflict between 2 parties it is the those on the latest dated document in a contract that apply and are deemed to be accepted by both parties. Unless the client has written something to the tune of "the installer will undertake electrical work" on a document that forms part of the contract between you, your T&Cs will apply, and unless they are unreasonable, the courts should uphold them.

Also, when a dispute such as this exists, it is normally accepted that the installer must be given reasonable opportunity to correct any defects in a reasonable time. If the installer refuses, or the correction is not to a reasonable standard then the process moves to the next level.
If you were not given this opportunity, you can argue that you would have been happy and still are happy to make satisfactory corrections at your own expense. In this event there are no corrections to make so you should be home and dry.

The client may be trying it on and hoping that you will make an out-of-court settlement. You could call their bluff, but that's easy for an outsider to say. Sometimes a few hunderd quid as "full and final settlement" is worth the cost just to get them off your back, but that's maybe what they are hoping for. If I were to make an offer, I'd be prepared to up it, so I wouldn't open with my top figure. I would be tempted to say "see you in court" and let them call my bluff, but there may be other aspects to this that would make this inadvisable.

I'm no solicitor, so this is not gospel, just an opinion.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[ian.settle1]

It could be a one in a million chance but it may be a good idea to watch what is said as the electrician involved could be a member off this site or knows someone who is.

 

[SMB]

What concerns me is the 3rd party electrician. You say he identified that the installation was not up to standards. So what did he recommend to her and you. I'm going along the lines of did he ask you not to fit the kitchen until he had time to rectify the problems. I'm wondering if he did, you went ahead and fitted, and that when he came to work he created merry hell that the kitchen was fitted after him telling you not to, and the only way he could work now was by removing the kitchen.

The above is the only mention of this subject, and it might be the important bit.

 

[nick611]

i hope you win this case. in future tell people they need a elec test in writing before you will fit any new applience. this country is full of c**ts and soliciters are the biggest of the lot

 

[ezzzekiel]

cant see the problem, go to court stand up and say im a kitchen fitter not an electrician

 

[jo4nny8]

The above is the only mention of this subject, and it might be the important bit.

Nah, the electrician (well hes only registeed as a domestic installer) told the customer they werent up to standard and thats it, the customer told me i 'had' to change them and i said we werent as we werent doing any electrics. i told them it was their problem and said for them to sort but they never did anything about it. i know now its not my problem and have enough evidense to back this up. ill let you know how i get on when it comes to the case

 

[alanl]

Now the customer (6 months later) is taking me to court over a few items and the main point is with these electrics and that he now has to have a whole new kitchen (the quote has come from this other electrican) and wants £8000 off me because of this.

I had a similar problem just over a year ago.
I did a really good deal on a bathroom, it was for a friends daughters first house. I got all the best deals on parts, passed on all the discounts to her, and only charged £75/day plus parts. From day one she was a real PITA. Anyway, it took 2 weeks from start to finish. She paid for this no problem.
I had to go back a couple of weeks later to tile around the window where a new window had been fitted. Took me most of the day to do, and another day to paint the ceiling/door. I sent her a bill of £160 for this,on December 12th.
I got a letter from her on 27th January, saying she would not be paying me as my standard of work was so bad that she would have to pay someone else to fix it.
She even said do not ring me, if you need to contact me, them put it in writing. So, I sent a letter off same day, saying I'd gladly go round to fix things to her satisfaction. She replied saying she didnt want me round her house again.
Now, when I finished this job, I was that pleased with it that I took a number of photos. Her complaints were completely unjustified, and it can clearly be seen in the pics that it was a good job.
She just didnt want to pay. If I wanted I could have claimed the payment if I went to Court. But, she was a friends daughter, and this caused me no end of stress.

Anyway, back to your problem, I really cannot see that she has a legitimate claim. You didnt use 2nd hand parts, you didnt touch the house wiring, so there can be no legitimate claim against you.
If there is a report saying your work is not up to standard, then you must be allowed to get an Independent report into the quality of the install.
The customers first call should have been to you to complain about it. Then if you do nothing, then they can take things further. As I understand it, you have had no opportunity to rectify any genuine faults.
How on earth can a new kitchen be required? Is every unit damaged?
Without allowing you to repair it, the Customer cannot really expect to win any claim against you.

Alan.

 

[ringer]

Where's the input on this from MFHeng now he's had time to read the report?

 

[MFHEng]

The report is not a report it is an estimate of works from the third party electrician and pretty meaningless at that,(even for an estimate) the some total of the electrical part is about 7 words followed by other items and a figure to do the work.

There's no point posting it, as its completley worthless and supposedley forms part of the evidence from the "expert witness" electrician the defence solicitor will wet themselves laughing when they see it.