Lack of skill

[rantoftheday]

Whats with the extremely poor standard of sparky work these days?

Sorry but I really feel as if the craftmanship of an electrician has been sadly lost

The company I work for has around 30 sparks of which 23 or so are completely useless, maybe 4 are decent and 2 or 3 spot on

It just seems that people dont give a damn as long as what they are installing works, bugger the regs, testing results are fabricated rarely see a bit of containment installed properly do people really not take their jobs seriously or uis it just me?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To be honest with you, I think this problem is widespread across the whole of todays society.
Many people don't seem to take pride in their work, or even seem to give a damn about whether they're doing a good job or not.

 

[Robinson]

A customer that actually agrees to pay a bit more for a decent job must be an endangered species.
I really like the guarantee idea though.

I believe Elecsa provide a scheme of Guarantee that gives the house owner or client and option of taking out
a cover for the work. IN case the sparks that did the work stuffed it up it slipped their net and the customer is in the stook, they then guarantee a repair. Anyone used or had sign one sign up? i know you give the client the option. And believe that the GOV says that you have to for Part P work?

 

[SW1970]

To be honest with you, I think this problem is widespread across the whole of todays society.
Many people don't seem to take pride in their work, or even seem to give a damn about whether they're doing a good job or not.

Yep - see it all the time across most of society. Checkout staff, plumber, waiter, etc etc. People aren't afraid of losing their job enough because the benefits system we have is generous. Do away with much of that and things will sort themselves out.

 

[tawraste]

everyone who touched on the problem being people's attitude are right.
even when people are shown exactly what to do by enthusiastic and knowledgeable people whom you can respect, they still skive and dodge given the first opportunity.
and the responsibility of your role does not seem to influence this behaviour one single bit.
here's an over the top example from some friends of mine involved in NDT inspection:
NDT jobs and NDT news from NDT Cabinand though extreme, this attitude is not isolated in this field either, on that side of the pond or here.

we've bred a global generation of mini sociopaths!

 

[imago]

It has an awful lot to do with the training one is given. Those that have gone thru indentured apprenticeships and had ongoing training on the practical side of things, tend to remember what and how to do things as they were taught by the skilled electricians. Those that are coming into the industry these days, have no practical training or experience to bring with them into the work place.

I agree, but I think it goes deeper than just the trade specific training. Things like basic hand skills seem to have almost disappeared with youngsters now. I don't blame them for it, it's the way wider society has moved. It's a disposable society. How many kids repair their bikes/motorbikes? How many work with their parents/uncles/friends on DIY jobs or repairing/servicing the car? So no wonder that they have little idea how much pressure is required to tighten a bolt before it strips, make an electrical connection, select the correct tool, what a Phillps screw head is, how a basic machine works, how to work through a problem to find out what's wrong etc etc.

I moved away from the sharp end of the electrical trade for some years. However I was lucky enough to have worked with my father on many things including his work in the construction industry. I was also fortunate enough to have served an apprenticeship at a time when that meant spending time in the stores, workshop, paint shop, offices and prime mover shop. Because of that back ground now that I am moving back into the sharp end of the trade, albeit domestic and light commercial, I am working through the 2357 NVQ. Why? Well partly because it's still (IMHO) the most interesting of the trades to learn and work in. Partly because I want to be able to wave my qualifications with the young bucks. And mainly because 30 + years of experience, training and knowledge mean I know for damn sure I still have loads to learn.

I have posted part of my life story not to bore you, but to illustrate how things have changed. Because of my background and training I know I have to keep learning to keep fresh. The five week courses only supply a demand, they aren't the cause of the problem, they're a symptom. "I want to be qualified and I want it now!" "I'm not sweeping up and making tea, I'm too good for that."

 

[malcolmsanford]

As Imago it is symptomatic of society in general. My wife as been a nurse for 40 yrs now and is a manager of a care home facility and the home is part of the training system where young nurses still in training go to her for practical training.

Now that nursing training is a degree level (That's another story) she often get's nurses who have never done, or in fact never needed to know, that they did basic nursing procedures. This would be simple things like combing a patients hair, cleaning their teeth for them if their not able to do it themselves, feeding a patient, etc, basically compassion.

She would never say these newer nurses lack that, it is just that they are trained that this is now not their role, but as my wife is old school, she feels that this part of the training is so wrong, like us older sparks now think that the training of the young electricians are wrong.

Yes modern life as changed, and I guess in a 50 years from now the 5 days course guys will be on a forum bemoaning the new "direct brain access" course that trains you up in 45mins, who knows but all I can say is that like my old sparks before me, who told me he was glad he was coming to the end of his time in the industry, so am I now.

 

[Phil]

A lot has to do with the way they are trained. not just at college but furthermore in the work place. some of the employers think they will be shown it in the college and its cheaper to leave it that way than have someone watching them and making sure its done properly on site. Also a lot goes down to your only as good as the guy thats training you and that goes for the workplace as well as college.

to pick up on Malcolms point I know many nurses and was having the same conversation with a senior one who has not got a degree and tbh I think its the graduate mentality in nursing now. you pop a graduate in a job that sometimes your required to get hands on and sometimes a little mucky and they don`t want to do it, some of them are just after that big ladder they are trying to climb up. so so to see many skills and trades going this way.

also if they paid the right wages that people deserve we might get a few more decent people in the trade that are committed instead of them expecting tradesmen for not much more than minimum wage in some cases.

 

[Knobhead]

To me the problem goes to before the training given to lads entering the trade.
My secondary school had fantastic woodwork and metalwork shops, physics, biology and chemistry labs. With people skilled in the trades in them to teach. Even the maths teachers could make differential calculus interesting.
My son Carl went to the same school they still had the same equipment but the closest they got to it was to watch the teacher using it. He then went the same technical collage as me, the same story. When I went the both the school and collage with him for open days every time I nailed the teachers / lecturers about this, same story every time, Health and bloody Safety!

 

[Phil]

nail on head there Tony about the schools. they are more interested in showing them a load of useless crud they will never need or use, some other qual that means nothing but they can say they have got 10+ or whatever. too much emphasis is put on qualifications these days. the Aussies seem to be going back to basics and also getting the guys and girls interested inside the schools by getting the trades into the classroom. I was watching a programme where they were saying that some kids are not interested in the achademic side and start switching off etc and playing up which not only leaves them without but also disrupts the rest of the class. they are getting the trades into the school to get them trained up in the school by proper trademen and women. this pulls them back into learning and gives them a really good foundation for when they leave and start in the industry. also they are still made to do the maths and englisjh and for the sparks some of the lessons are geared up for specific trades related lessons

 

[Rockingit]

Just picking up on Phil and Tony's comments; absolutely right as far as I can see.

Some of you might laugh at this, but when I went to school it had a fairly rural catchment area, so Rural Studies was a mandatory core subject - thus, when I was at school I got taught how to shear a sheep (literally!) because the school had a whole flock of them. We also had the most amazingly talented teachers who taught the traditional skills and by the age of 12 I could strip down and rebuld a car engine - at school. We had a physics teacher who had been a radar op in the war and was full of more B-S stories than I can possibly remember, but he taught me Ohms law and Fleming and all the other basic principles like he was falling off a log. Another one of my teachers (ex-REME) won a national award for best teacher - why? Because he took the kids that weren't interested in learning History and taught them how to build walls with bricks and mortar.

Now, my lad goes to a different school in a similar setting and all they are interested in is passing exams without actually learning anything in the middle. So it's up to me to teach him how to drill a hole and use a level and not cut his finger off with a chisel - just like I was taught by my old Chief.

 

[oxocube]

Remember we live in a country were the political desire by all parties is to have an uneducated dumbed down population. Unable to think for themselves, afraid of giving opinions or expressing their personality in case they break the law by upsetting some minority. And this dumbing down is continuing in government sanctioned electrical training standards.

Theres another post on here called 'new am2' and someone made a mistake and posted a link to the old am2 requirements. It was dated 2001 and included demonstrating skills in steel conduit, micc and wiring trunking. Someone else posted a link to the new am2 and all these skills have been removed. So from now on sparks will only be skilled in domestic type wiring.

So who's going to do the industrial and commercial work? Perhaps Italians or Portugese the most highly trained and skilful sparks I have ever worked with, and their bosses won't be employing any english sparks unless its for semi skilled labouring.

 

[Knobhead]

Within reason one of the best ways to teach is let them get the odd nick, nothing drastic. But they soon realise that you take the sharp edges off something before putting it down on the bench.

I did get pulled up for letting an apprentice get a shock. It was only a 50V system 25-0-25. He asked if it was dead so I just said yes. It wasn’t. He only got a tingle, but he learnt not to trust what someone tells you, but make sure for yourself! I’d put the AVO at the side of him before he stuck his fingers in. The foreman was with us and was near wetting himself, but pulled me on one side to give me a while still trying not to laugh.
Both the foreman and myself went on to do HV training together. When the lecturer came out with “never trust what your told” we both pointed at each other and burst out laughing!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The great problem now i think in this country is so many think they are owed something by right or are on the lookout for a quick n easy fix such as "be a sparks in 6 weeks" crap etc and it doesn`t just stop at trades......the amount of government and political party figures who constantly bleat for medals just for doing there basic mandate whilst TV and "news" channels fan the flames.............If only any of our so called leaders were actually capable of doing anything..........

 

[Engineer54]

If only any of our so called leaders were actually capable of doing anything..........

They are, ....they are very good at looking after No 1 !!!!

 

[robsparky1975]

Looking through the direct.gov website earlier a qualified sparks with 2391 hourly rate £12.50,a scaffolder £15,lol that just says it all.may as well take my head off remove brain,go to gym,build some muscles and throw some scaffy around for £15 an hour.with all the solar pv going on thats not a bad idea lol