R

rantoftheday

Whats with the extremely poor standard of sparky work these days?

Sorry but I really feel as if the craftmanship of an electrician has been sadly lost

The company I work for has around 30 sparks of which 23 or so are completely useless, maybe 4 are decent and 2 or 3 spot on

It just seems that people dont give a damn as long as what they are installing works, bugger the regs, testing results are fabricated rarely see a bit of containment installed properly do people really not take their jobs seriously or uis it just me?
 
UNG, tell me when you’ve learnt enough.

2[SUP]nd[/SUP] thoughts one of us will be pushing up daisies before that ever happens.

It isn't going to happen in my lifetime spend I too much time looking for and being given new challenges which need new skills or knowledge

I’ve retired from the trade now but now I’ve got time to read, I learn something every day from this and other engineering sites. I will say this is the best site for practical things, the others are more academic and not as much fun!

Don't think I'll ever retire can't sit still for long enough
 
I have got to say the lack of skill is not only in the electrical industry

A mate of mine has been complaining to a main dealer about an ongoing intermitant fault on his car. Now it's out of it's 3 year warranty and nearly 4 years old he has just had it serviced by an mobile independent mechanic who identified the fault in less time than it took to make him a brew and it was all done with his vehicle computer diagnostic equipment even though the dealer said his equipment showed no faults which was correct reading the sensor information screen showed up the problem
 
I'm not sure I'll win many friends with this post but what constitutes a "good spark"?I've never really got that,does it mean a good spark is the one who's the neatest?does it mean the one who's the fastest?
I'm looking for a little bit of back up from my industrial control friends here but to me the "best" sparks are the ones who can identify the CAUSE of the problems,repair them a)quickly so no major loss of production etc b)so it doesn't occurr again c) find a good solution to the problem.

Good example.There's a boy that works with me,always puts the bootlace ferrules on,cable ties every x mm etc,proper crimping tools so the ends are on "just so".
I got called at 3.45pm to finish off wiring up a plug motor as he had to get home,it's 2 speed and forward reverse.
Get there to find it's been wired up,but it's going the wrong way,fair enough,so I swap two phases on the contactor.
Him"why are you doing that,it's wired as I took it off??",me "to change direction",him"I'm going home,this is beyond me".
I then found he'd put the slow to fast/fast to slow,this is easy to check beforehand through resistance checks.
I turn to explain this to him and he's running down the road with the apprentice,well done boys.
The managers now standing there asking me why it's not running,being a loyal guy,I try covering for him.the manager then informs me that he's been on this job since 11.30,4+ hrs to wire in a 6 wire motor which is 100% accessible and it doesn't even work!!!but it looks neat though!!!
1/2 way through this the shift spark comes in and I go back to my original job. Now this guys not well thought of round the place,he's seen as lazy,likes sitting down/talking etc.
Like me he's not local so that doesn't help either.
Within 10 minutes he has it running,productions back on and all's well.
The next shift,mr neat is receiving all the plaudits from our maintenance supervisor for the lovely neat job he did,until mr manager puts him straight.

A lot is said on here regarding domestic installers,"5 week wonders" etc,for gods sake someone even put up how backward we are compared to polish/portugese sparks!!!get a grip lads,the older ones amongst you know that what constitutes a "spark" now is not what it was even 15years ago,modular systems now mean that most domestic/installation work is pretty much child's play.
In my nigh on 20years I've seen maybe 2 domestic boys that can make the transition to a more control/faultfinding environment,and they're still way off what probably a 3rd year apprentice who's done a proper faultfinding course is.
So I ask again,what constitutes a "good spark"?
Or should the question be,what constitutes a "good worker"?
The two in my eyes are hugely different.mr neats no use to me at 3am when I can't get a machine to start,but when I find corroded terminals in a junction box,he could be the man to rewire it,provided I mark all the cables up for him first,I'm sure the job will look fantastic,but he could never find why it needed to be done in the first place.
There's a lad working with me now,apprentice 3rd year,bright boy but old before his time.
He spent a day once trying to correct what I was telling him as he'd been told the "correct" way to do things by "good sparks".
I sat him down after 5 hrs of this cr4p and asked him a simple question,do you want to spend the rest of your days connecting up sockets,making sure trunkings level,getting all your cables to bend at the same angles because your told to,or do you want to be the guy who does it because he knows WHY it needed doing in the first place.
Only time will tell.
 
To be honest IMO a good sparks is someone that as never burnt an house/factory/hotel/shop etc down and killed people.

I think that is the ultimate bottom line and covers domestic/industrial/commercial/maintenance etc etc. If you can walk away knowing that what you done whatever it is, is safe then I think you have made it.
 
Vaughaut, good post about sums things up in the industry

Part P has caused a big divide in our industry

Beyond the basics there are alot in the industry cannot understand the limitations of some test equipment or exploit the advanced facilities that alot of test equipment offers
 
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To be honest, I think we ALL need to cut each other some slack with this subject. The U.K., along with a HANDFUL of other countries is at the top of our game with Electrical Installations (of any flavour). Grab your passport and jump on a few sleazyjet.com flights to other places, THEN come back and talk about what makes a good and bad sparks.

I'm an 'all-rounder'; did my YTS in electrical when I was 16, went on to do some work in pure electronics and IT, then went and worked in the entertainments industry pulling 3ph around all over the place before taking up house bashing a couple of years ago. What makes me 'good' is the fact that I know what I don't, so I don't do it. I don't do factory control or automation because I know little about it, likewise the guys that do just that are probably a little on the backfoot when presented with a hammer and chisel.

It doesn't make one of us better, just differently skilled. Both of us probably follow the same method in fault finding, the process of doing things in a logical way and equally both of us have a desire to be proud of our work and ensure that it's neat and tidy as well as working.

Surely, that's what this forum is for: to SHARE our experiences, help each other out and show a united front in a desire to stay at the top of the game.
 
Surely, that's what this forum is for: to SHARE our experiences, help each other out and show a united front in a desire to stay at the top of the game.

How did we stay at the top of our game before the internet and forums as our trade evolved to what it is now?

How many will ever get to the top of the game?

It is all to easy to hide limited knowledge and experience at the touch of a few buttons these days. The availability of the internet everywhere these days allows people to post questions and some expect instant answers to what appears to be a basic problem

I for one consider the possible outcome of answering questions as some may take legal action although they have misinterpeted the answer in resolving the problem also am I allowing these people to undercut genuine well qualified and experienced tradesmen by answering there questions?

It is all food for thought
 
I agree with UNG that sometimes less is more, and I too am careful about what I do and don't answer on here.

Most practical skills are passed down through the ages by what the Anthropologists call an 'Oral Tradition', as in, one generation tells the next what to do. It is much the same here: The Chief tells the Apprentice, only now we have technology that means we can have lots of Chiefs telling lots of apprentices. So long as the Chiefs stay truy, and the Apprentice stays eager, then I really don't see a down side.

As for teaching the DIY-ers, well, that's a subject about regulation and control, not one of quality workmanship.
 
Good thread this,some great replies.
Totally agree on the help issue,there's a few things I think I'll be pestering Tony about over the next few months as his knowledge is pretty immense in my field,in fact 90%+ of the guys/girls on here seem really clued up.
As for the hammer and bolster,spot on there,kango hammer is as far as I go,thank god I've got a good plasterer!!!
 
Got to say that if you ain't keen and dedicated 100 per cent then don't take up sparkying in the first place. I reckon that this trade is the most diverse of any trade. Monday you could be bashing a house, Tuesday you could be wiring a control system panel, Wednesday you could be fault finding heavy machinery, Thursday you could find yourself installing a solar panel and Friday you could be sitting in the house because some 5 day wonder is rewiring a house for £7 an hour!

I am 25 and was lucky enough to serve an excellent and diverse apprenticeship being guided by some quality old time sparks who hammered home the importance of pride of work. When I work with guys of a similar age who don't give a s*** about their work or don't know how to do a periodic inspection half of me feels sorry for them and the other half doesn't because these days it is so easy to learn there are so many great books and guides available. I practically taught myself inspection and testing by getting my head in GN3 and some practical guide books. I then went on to pass the 2391.

I think a lot of the lack of skill does indeed come from today's world. Thirty years ago kids would be spending hours on a meccano set, these days the finger bashing of an Xbox is as far as it gets

Why don't schools spend time teaching kids practical skills from bricklaying to basic electrical work to one get kids interested and two get them used to practical skills? They should bin subject such as religious education what a waste of time.

Also though the lack of apprenticeships and moreso thack of quality apprenticeships is definitely another major factor

Good luck to any sparks starting out now, as I started out just under ten yeras ago I even notice a big difference now from then
 
I dont think schools are allowed anymore to teach what most of us could do as kids the CDT class,hammers,drills etc,ruled by brussels,im british and dont want nothing to do with them,can we have OUR country back,rule brittania
 
A good spark in one that never stops reading and learning about the trade.

Someone who always makes the effort to find out the best solution.

With the internet we are all capable of this it's just some can't be bothered.

That's the difference between a good and bad spark IMO.
 
A good spark in one that never stops reading and learning about the trade.

Someone who always makes the effort to find out the best solution.

With the internet we are all capable of this it's just some can't be bothered.

That's the difference between a good and bad spark IMO.

Agree with learning and the effort. The internet can be very helpful but there is no substitute for experience, common sense and colleagues with plenty of.
 
More on the 3 year apprentice

I left my 1st year apprentice (age 18) and the 3rd year guy (age 35) to tidy a job that I had done a new consumer unit in
They had to run a water bond and check some sockets (all dead working)
The 3 rd year guy put on a socket to a pattress and managed to break the back box - he hadn't stripped the twin and earth sheath back far enough.
The young one fixed it and I arrived back 10 mins later to find the 35 year old doin exactly the same thing again on another box.

I didn't know about the first one at this stage and pulled him up on his schoolboy error.
He looked really depressed and I get the feeling he isn't really interested in becoming a sparks

I asked him to do a wiring diagram of a job we were at last week. Gave him the spec (position of switches, cable routes - all bar the connections).
He had 3 attempts and got it wrong, after each attempt I explained what he had done wrong, he said he understood and obviously didn't

This annoyed me more- I don't mind if someone doesn't understand- but I mind if they try and bluff it
 
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More on the 3 year apprentice

I left my 1st year apprentice (age 18) and the 3rd year guy (age 35) to tidy a job that I had done a new consumer unit in
They had to run a water bond and check some sockets (all dead working)
The 3 rd year guy put on a socket to a pattress and managed to break the back box - he hadn't stripped the twin and earth sheath back far enough.
The young one fixed it and I arrived back 10 mins later to find the 35 year old doin exactly the same thing again on another box.

I didn't know about the first one at this stage and pulled him up on his schoolboy error.
He looked really depressed and I get the feeling he isn't really interested in becoming a sparks

I asked him to do a wiring diagram of a job we were at last week. Gave him the spec (position of switches, cable routes - all bar the connections).
He had 3 attempts and got it wrong, after each attempt I explained what he had done wrong, he said he understood and obviously didn't

This annoyed me more- I don't mind if someone doesn't understand- but I mind if they try and bluff it

you sound like a great employer mate, one that gives a dam.
 
I dont think schools are allowed anymore to teach what most of us could do as kids the CDT class,hammers,drills etc,ruled by brussels,im british and dont want nothing to do with them,can we have OUR country back,rule brittania

When looking round the local secondary schools for my son 12 years ago we got to the workshops and I made a comment about the old Boxford lathes and how it took me back to my days at school the teacher who overheard the comment said unfortunately they don't get used these days because of health and safety and also the lack of respect today's pupils have for the dangers in using the equipment

More on the 3 year apprentice

I left my 1st year apprentice (age 18) and the 3rd year guy (age 35) to tidy a job that I had done a new consumer unit in
They had to run a water bond and check some sockets (all dead working)
The 3 rd year guy put on a socket to a pattress and managed to break the back box - he hadn't stripped the twin and earth sheath back far enough.
The young one fixed it and I arrived back 10 mins later to find the 35 year old doin exactly the same thing again on another box.

I didn't know about the first one at this stage and pulled him up on his schoolboy error.
He looked really depressed and I get the feeling he isn't really interested in becoming a sparks

I asked him to do a wiring diagram of a job we were at last week. Gave him the spec (position of switches, cable routes - all bar the connections).
He had 3 attempts and got it wrong, after each attempt I explained what he had done wrong, he said he understood and obviously didn't

This annoyed me more- I don't mind if someone doesn't understand- but I mind if they try and bluff it

There are too many Billy Bluffs out there that don't listen because they know it all and know best it, I think that is why apprentice training died too many cocky 16 year olds with no respect for those teaching them the trade and no reasoning as to why they didn't start on full money as they could do it
 

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