Large scale DMX controlled setup

[myosis]

Hi there,

I should start off by saying I'm in the deep here. I've never done this before and have very little knowledge, so I'm asking here if what I've learned makes any sense and what would be your advice for handling a setup this big ?

I'm building a massive light installation with a total of 260 meters of programmable RGB led strips.
I'm planning on using 60 leds per meter which would be a total of 15,600 individual pixels.

I want to control these 15,600 pixels during a live performance, so I will be hooking it up to a DMX and controlling it via a pc.

Here is where it gets kind of confusing for me, and I'm not sure what the best solution for this setup would be. I'm fine with soldering and I know where the cables need to go. But the numbers on the dmx parts are somewhat overwhelming.

One dmx driver can take up to 170 individual led lights, meaning I would need 92 dmx drivers.
I believe most dmx controllers only take up to 32 drivers.

I don't think I can use 3 dmx controllers and somehow use them as 1.

There is this thing called Art-net which seems to be made to handle larger than usual setups.
Would this be able to take up to to 92 dmx drivers?
Or what would the approach of this setup otherwise be ?

Cheers,
Tim

 

[marcuswareham]

What DMX drivers, LED strip and controller are you using.

DMX is a control protocol used mostly for controlling stage lighting. 1 DMX "universe" consists of 512 channels (each channel having a variable value from 0 to 255), a lot of DMX controllers (traditionally lighting desks) have multiple DMX universe outputs. Artnet is a way of sending multiple DMX universe data over a IP network.

So the way DMX typically works for lighting is:

First:

You have a controller (normally a lighting desk, but there is also DMX control software), in its most simple form this could be a controller with a number of faders to control the value of each DMX channel (i.e fader 1 changes the intensity/value of channel 1 and so on.). This is not common as a desk to contain a fader for each DMX channel would be very large and not very practical to use for a lot of DMX controlled lights, So most lighting desks and DMX software now have a set-up called a DMX patch, this is where you define which control parts of the software/lighting desk control which DMX channels (typically by things called fixtures on most lighting desks). This can be a different process for each bit of software or controller so looking at the manual will show you how this is done.

Second:

you have a light / fixture / DMX controlled equipment, This equipment will receive data from every DMX channel on the universe it is connected to, but it will only listen to a set of channels it is told to, this is why you set a DMX start address (i.e if a bit of equipment has 5 dmx channels and you set the start address of the equipment to 10, it will listen to channels 10,11,12,13,14&15) different equipment have a different number of chanels A simple RGBW colour mixing light might only have 4 chanels (intensity for red, green, blue & white) however a much more complex moving light might have 30 channels. If 2 bits of equipment are addressed the same and they are the same bit of equipment they will do exsactly the same as one another if 2 bits of different equipment are addressed the same it would usually cause undesirable results. The DMX start address is often set using some buttons and a small LED screen although on some smaller and some older equipment it might be set using dip switches, the user manual will show how to set the DMX address

So that is the very basic principles of DMX lighting control, so we need a bit more information to answer questions

Also this question might be more suitable for a stage lighting forum , rather than an electricians forum. I used to do lighting but some time ago, so I myself am rusty

 

[myosis]

@marcuswareham Thank you!
Hereby some more information:

I have been talking to a supplier in China and they told me I can daisy chain 4 of their artNET AS_832M, and have the last one connect to the pc like so:

These can connect with Madrix, Madmapper or resolume, and look like this:


They can take up to 5440 pixels each, meaning I would need 4 artNET’s, instead of 92 dmx drivers.
Or are there good reasons to avoid "cheaper" Chinese artNET's ?

The pixel strip I'm planning on using is: WS-2815 led strip, 12V, 60led/m, IP67.
I've been told a single pair of RSP-3000s power supply should run the entire 260 meters (15,600 pixels) of pixel strip.

Please feel free to call me out if I'm doing something absurdly stupid, I would very much appreciate it
As far as I am aware, this seems to be the way to control 260 meters of led's live via pc?

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Rockingit]

OK. As this is basically my area of expertise I guess I should jump in.

Let's start with the basics - of your 15,600 pixels, how many do you want to control individually? All of them?? Or is that say in bunches of three pixels so 15,600 /3 = 5200 etc. Because this determines the number of raw control channels that you need and in turn the number of DMX Universes. 15,600 channels would be 31, 5200 would be 11 and so on.

 

[Rockingit]

Having just had a look at that strip, each pixel is 24bit (8bits per R,G,B on the individual pixel). In DMX terms that means your 15,600 pixels actually need 46,800 ch's of DMX at full resolution - ergo you'd need 92 DMX Universes - assuming no 'address wastage' on each universe - which is where your figure of 92 drivers comes from.

Artnet-II has an upper limit of 256 Universes so as a transport layer this would work.

Another aspect of this is the construction methods and reassembly on-site. My guess is that you'll be building it in some modular plug-play fashion so what you won't want is a complicated system of a million Cat5's and hubs everywhere. Conventional wisdom would have a driver per strip with an ArtNode every 4. Hope you've deep pockets!

 

[myosis]

@Rockingit

Ah I see, glad you informed me about this, for some reason I confused pixels with channels. I understand now that the average artNET can take up to 512 channels.

Bunches of 3 sounds good, but my budget says bunches of 5, meaning I would need about 6 artNET’s.
If I build it using 6 artNET’s upgrading to 11 probably means rewiring everything, right?

Is any software oke with using the strips in bunches rather than individually ?
(I'm planning on using madmapper)

Do you see any other flaws in my current setup ?
Thanks again!

 

[myosis]

@Rockingit

Sorry I didn't see your second message, yes the pieces will be removable with plugs, and they will be installed on site.
Each "average" strip is around 1 meter, data and power cable running next to it, all attached on Velcro, with plugs on either end.

As for the pixels / channels, I'm confused. I've been told that: “artNET and sACN can provide almost 64,000 universes with one cable. That's almost 11 million pixels”
And that this was my solution to using 92 individual dmx drivers.

But if I understand you correctly, I wouldn't have live control over these led's if I used a single sACN?

 

[Rockingit]

@Rockingit

Ah I see, glad you informed me about this, for some reason I confused pixels with channels. I understand now that the average artNET can take up to 512 channels.

No, you're confusing ArtNet with with DMX. DMX (per 'Universe') is 512. ArtNet is a way of transporting multiple DMX Universes using conventional data cabling methods.

Think of it like a postal delivery service - I send an envelope to an address, but the postal worker puts multiple letters in their bag, multiple bags into the van, multiple vans into lorries. ArtNet is our lorry and will take tonnes of data, but at some point our envelope needs to be off-loaded, this happens at a 'node'. It's easier to draw.... gimme a few!

Bunches of 3 sounds good, but my budget says bunches of 5, meaning I would need about 6 artNET’s.
If I build it using 6 artNET’s upgrading to 11 probably means rewiring everything, right?

See above - only ever 1 ArtNet (in this context), the number of decoders is what's relevant.

Is any software oke with using the strips in bunches rather than individually ?
(I'm planning on using madmapper)

Do you see any other flaws in my current setup ?
Thanks again!

Not personally familiar with that package, you'd need to check it will handle the number of DMX universes you need.

 

[Rockingit]

Try this - it's cost you the coffee I've just drunk to draw it. Follow it through logically before starting to think about actual physical equipment as I think that's possibly confusing you. Ask questions if there's something not self explanatory!

 

[myosis]

Try this - it's cost you the coffee I've just drunk to draw it. Follow it through logically before starting to think about actual physical equipment as I think that's possibly confusing you. Ask questions if there's something not self explanatory!

View attachment 85680

I feel pretty bad because I appreciate the effort so much, but for me this looks like an encrypted message.
I wish I could pay you some beers (or coffee) and talk it over.
Bit of a long shot, but you don't happen to live in Thailand, do you ? haha.

You're right, I approach learning immediately physical, or even just moving parts in 3d. I tried to replicate this diagram with 3d objects but I simply don't understand what I'm looking at.

I can't find any information about what a ArcNode is, and the dmx universes are ‘what appears to me’ in random order attached to a arcnodes.

I apologize sincerely, I will try to console with someone here in person before asking / wasting more of your time.

Thank you for taking the time and I am very grateful.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Rockingit]

Sadly no I'm not, and unlikely to be anywhere close for a while due to the pandemic. But.... if I can make my brain work properly today then I might be able to think of people who are. Drop me your contact details by DM on here, if you want. No promises!

And - we're here to help. Even if this hasn't helped you much, the next person who does a search on DMX on here will find this thread, and it might help them.

 

[marcuswareham]

@marcuswareham Thank you!
Hereby some more information:

I have been talking to a supplier in China and they told me I can daisy chain 4 of their artNET AS_832M, and have the last one connect to the pc like so:
View attachment 85659
These can connect with Madrix, Madmapper or resolume, and look like this:
View attachment 85660

They can take up to 5440 pixels each, meaning I would need 4 artNET’s, instead of 92 dmx drivers.
Or are there good reasons to avoid "cheaper" Chinese artNET's ?

The pixel strip I'm planning on using is: WS-2815 led strip, 12V, 60led/m, IP67.
I've been told a single pair of RSP-3000s power supply should run the entire 260 meters (15,600 pixels) of pixel strip.

Please feel free to call me out if I'm doing something absurdly stupid, I would very much appreciate it
As far as I am aware, this seems to be the way to control 260 meters of led's live via pc?

Cheers,
Tim

Sorry i didn't reply, I have been working overnight, but it seems rockingit has got you covered although

I send an envelope to an address, but the postal worker puts multiple letters in their bag, multiple bags into the van, multiple vans into lorries. ArtNet is our lorry

nice analogy

 

[Arundel/Lx]

Sadly no I'm not, and unlikely to be anywhere close for a while due to the pandemic. But.... if I can make my brain work properly today then I might be able to think of people who are. Drop me your contact details by DM on here, if you want. No promises!

And - we're here to help. Even if this hasn't helped you much, the next person who does a search on DMX on here will find this thread, and it might help them.

Very useful info, thanks. Using DMX at a theatre in Arundel, West Sussex, only one universe but was (until now) clueless about Artnet, nodes, etc. loved your explanation and useful drawings.