Live incomer is earth cable wrapped in brown tape?

[Mindgirl]

Hi

I wonder if anyone has any useful thoughts on this. Client wants me to redo consumer unit but doesn’t want disruption to fabric of building. I’ve attached pic - looks like original wiring was a 16mm earth to the live incomer .

The meter box is >20m away.
I guess cable is cable but 16mm would be undersized in a modern installation
I don’t understand why it was done like this since the house was built 2011 from ground up, so no retrofitting.
This is one of two consumer units, both of which have Knx units in same unit (which they shouldn’t) , and will be migrating them to a different system that will work better for the client.
The latter is relevant as it appears the KNX install was done by someone who had no idea, nor the software to programme it all, so none of it works as it should, but is now

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Of course it's rough and I wouldn't tolerate it, but I don't think that's a fair comparison. G/Y 6491X is insulated to the same standard as brown, it's just the colour that's wrong which arguably could be fixed by 'changing' the colour. The CPC in T&E is not insulated and must not be used as a live conductor. My concern is that the tape, as a colour code, is not durable enough and could detach leaving the incorrect colour exposed, and there might be confusion if it were deliberately stripped separately from the original insulation.

 

[Rockingit]

Of course it's rough and I wouldn't tolerate it, but I don't think that's a fair comparison. G/Y 6491X is insulated to the same standard as brown, it's just the colour that's wrong which arguably could be fixed by 'changing' the colour. The CPC in T&E is not insulated and must not be used as a live conductor. My concern is that the tape, as a colour code, is not durable enough and could detach leaving the incorrect colour exposed, and there might be confusion if it were deliberately stripped separately from the original insulation.

I've wondered this, before now. When is a colour not a colour, etc. I've done it the other way around before, on an external gas bond where 20-30m of GY would have looked awful, so instead used brown which blended in and oversleeved G/Y at each end - NICEIC technical had no issues with it as I thought I should double check first (although I fully expect it confused the next gas fitter!)

 

[suffolkspark]

Have no idea how I would run new meter tails if they don’t want any disruption to building fabric!

Remember were not magicians. If it really is singles all the way not in containment it needs renewing, however that may be.

 

[Julie.]

Any practical solutions that don’t involve cutting new holes to run a new cable ?

I doubt it.

If it is coming through plasterboard walls, and under the floor; it might just be possible to pull an armoured through as three seperate cables twisted around (as they tend to be) does take up more space than a single piece.

But it only needs to be fixed or somehow jammed once along its length and then you're stuffed!

Is there a different route possible?

 

[pc1966]

I've wondered this, before now. When is a colour not a colour, etc. I've done it the other way around before, on an external gas bond where 20-30m of GY would have looked awful, so instead used brown which blended in and oversleeved G/Y at each end - NICEIC technical had no issues with it as I thought I should double check first (although I fully expect it confused the next gas fitter!)

I'm pretty sure that is fine.

The real issue with repurposing a G/Y cable is that someone thinks it is intrinsically safe at some point along the length, or it gets accidentally swapped, and so cut or attached to metalwork making for a serious risk of injury or death.

 

[Mindgirl]

I guess a proper discussion with client is due. Of note, the reason why I didn’t look as thoroughly as I should have first time is that there was full electrical NICEIC branded installation certificate posted up next to board downstairs . Will need to check when that was signed off and if they were actually on NICEIC register at time of signing

 

[mart spark]

I could be wrong as i haven't got the regs to hand but i believe in 17th you could oversleeve green and yellow cpc of flex only as long as it was done at both ends but, that the rule changed in the 18th. I'm open to corection as I'm going by memory.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Imo G/Y should not be used as anything else other than Earth / Cpc

G/y is the Univeral colour in the Uk for Earth and should remain as such

I

 

[Lucien Nunes]

My point was; is a cable consisting of green/yellow insulation completely wrapped in brown tape throughout its length, a green/yellow cable or a brown one?
How about if it's in brown sleeving throughout its length?
Or a cable with most of the insulation thickness one colour covered with a skin of another colour, e.g. a 2-core mains flex with two blue cores one of which has a brown skin?

 

[Julie.]

My point was; is a cable consisting of green/yellow insulation completely wrapped in brown tape throughout its length, a green/yellow cable or a brown one?

I would say g/y because the wrap could be removed intentionally or unintentionally.

How about if it's in brown sleeving throughout its length?

I would say g/y because the sleeve could be removed

Or a cable with most of the insulation thickness one colour covered with a skin of another colour, e.g. a 2-core mains flex with two blue cores one of which has a brown skin?

I would say brown because the skin cannot be removed whilst leaving the underlying insulation (unless one went to ridiculous effort)

In my opinion if the insulation is g/y by manufacture then it should never be over sleeved - it should only ever be used for earthing/cpc.

I realise that the regs do permit the g/y in flex to be over sleeved - personally I think this should not be permitted - bring back regulation B57 of the 14th edition I say!

 

[baldelectrician]

I would advise caution
The client is telling you what the job scope is- it is your job to let them know what needs to be done to make things safe and then they can decide what to do

When you go back take pictures and notes and then let them know you will send an estimate later on

You should send them something in writing if you have concens then if the house burns down you have covered your a$$.
Sometimes it is better to walk away from a client who will not take your advice and leave the problem install to someone else

 

[loz2754]

I realise that the regs do permit the g/y in flex to be over sleeved

Not any more they don't. 514.4.2

 

[Julie.]

Not any more they don't. 514.4.2

Yup I was being a bimbo, my campaign for bringing back reg b57 was successful!

I should have said had been permitted at one time - in fact the niceic used to promote its use in the snags and solutions back around the red book in ~2008

Yes - all removed now

Guess it's lucky I am retiring now then!