Who told you this? It is my understanding that the installation has to be completed entirely by the applicant.
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Who told you this? It is my understanding that the installation has to be completed entirely by the applicant.
Markc
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I think I would be very sceptical of this. Who is the accreditation body offering this, i.e, NIC, Napit, Corgi etc? How can they asses YOU for your installation if YOU haven't done it? Can you clarify this?
T
Treadwarm
I have worked closely with corgi and NIC EIC and have been the nominee for three companies who have hired myself as the MCS quality representative to gain MCS. The MCS standard does not specifically state that you physically need to do the installation even to the point that you can use a sub contractor to complete the work ( as long as the complete a sub contractor agreement form, outlining that they will work the relevant technology standard). MCS covers the knowledge and capability of an individual or company to both calculate and document all sections of a project and company procedure to ensure they work to the standards required. During your assessment 80% of the day will be spent on your QMS a collection is specific procedures documenting the procedures of your business and the capabilities you have to design / specify the equipment you are looking to supply / install. During this time they will also ask to see a project pack specific to the installation you will be showing them. Finally they will visit the site with you and ask questions relevant to the MCS product standard to ensure you are aware of the specific points on the installation. Trust me I have done this three times and passed first time each time. I also have worked closely with easy MCS the largest MCS preparation inspection company in the UK.
Any questions please feel free to ask I am here to help
Any questions please feel free to ask I am here to help
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T
Treadwarm
Sorry about some of the spelling in the above reply, I sent it from my phone and it reads a little poor.
I have to say if this is true then I am totally staggered.
A firm can gain MCS accreditation, which is effectively a sign that a firm excels at installing PV systems, even if a firm has NEVER even installed a single system?!
What next? A driving license issued to someone that has never driven?
A firm can gain MCS accreditation, which is effectively a sign that a firm excels at installing PV systems, even if a firm has NEVER even installed a single system?!
What next? A driving license issued to someone that has never driven?
T
Treadwarm
Hi Biggs, this is a common mistake with MCS, it does not stand for excellence of installation of renewable technologies. It actually covers the fact that you are compotent to design and specify correctly and record the information in a professional manner. Also this leads into the competent person scheme to sign of your own work . But don't think that anybody could gain MCS as you must be able to prove that you are competent to install your chosen equipment, ensuring you have the knowledge and capability to design / specify the kit, taking into account wind loads etc. If all these elements are covered then you can be sure that as long as the correct kit turns up then any roofer or part p spark can screw some panels to the roof.
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M
MorganPVI
As unbelieveable as it sounds I think Treadwarm maybe right, technically. The MCS is more about assessing the buisness and procedures, very much like ISO9001. I worked for 4 years for in a ISO9001 (and other high quality systems) business and have had more quality assements than hot dinners, in all those years and inspections, not once did the assesor want to see actual work carried out or even equipment on the bench. The nearest he got to the workshops was checking calibration stickers on multimeters and complaining we had resistors stored next to capcitors.
I suppose you could well pass the MCS if you had a sub-contractor round to do the install - after all the subby is there on behalf of the company and any problems the solar company is ultimately resonsible as prime contractor.
Shame if the MCS is only a paperwork exercise, i'd be worried about new firms springing up with at least the experience of one proven and assesed install. I'm sure alot of people could desgin and specify a suitable system after going on a course, but it's a different ball game installing some one elses desgin.
I suppose you could well pass the MCS if you had a sub-contractor round to do the install - after all the subby is there on behalf of the company and any problems the solar company is ultimately resonsible as prime contractor.
Shame if the MCS is only a paperwork exercise, i'd be worried about new firms springing up with at least the experience of one proven and assesed install. I'm sure alot of people could desgin and specify a suitable system after going on a course, but it's a different ball game installing some one elses desgin.
The MCS is supposed to give consumers the assurance that a company meets a certain set of strict standards. I'd have thought the actual installation of the equipment is a pretty vital aspect of these standards. Otherwise I'd argue pretty strongly that the whole MCS scheme is as much use as a chocolate saucepan.
I don't mean to get all 'Daily Mail' here but this country fills me with despair at times, it really does.
I don't mean to get all 'Daily Mail' here but this country fills me with despair at times, it really does.
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Markc
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So along these lines and as a MCS company would it be correct to say the REAL (or alike) scheme would expect the MCS company to state to the proposed customer that they, as the MCS company, do not install the system and they use sub contractors to do the installation?
I have to say I'm with Biggs here! What a mockery it makes of the entire procedures! When I achieved MCS though the NIC I had to of had TWO systems installed. No where in the NIC literature does it state that these can be installed by others. When we were assessed our two installations where checked (Not as toughly as I was expecting) but nether the less still inspected. Labels, cable routes, gen meter location etc. If this was installed by others how can it be assessed against a company who hasn't installed it?
I have to say I'm with Biggs here! What a mockery it makes of the entire procedures! When I achieved MCS though the NIC I had to of had TWO systems installed. No where in the NIC literature does it state that these can be installed by others. When we were assessed our two installations where checked (Not as toughly as I was expecting) but nether the less still inspected. Labels, cable routes, gen meter location etc. If this was installed by others how can it be assessed against a company who hasn't installed it?
T
Treadwarm
I have deleted my last post as I hope the explanation below gives a better account of the situation
I hope I have not mislead anybody via my posts above, Morgan123 is perfectly correct and the MCS scheme does require you to operate in a manner similar to ISO9001 ( which I think we all agree is a good thing???). in addition to this the company must show that a senior member of staff e.g Technical director has the ability to install the products ( this covers mounting the panels correctly) and design the electrical feeds & inverter section of the system ( this is nearly impossible without 17th edition and experience on site) in addition the technical representative must be able to show they can calculate wind loads etc. (basically give a good understanding of a working PV system).
If you have all this in place then you are capable of not only completing the installation to mcs standard but also of ensuring a system is installed to these standards which bring in the sub contractor section.
So for instance you are an M&E consultant looking to gain MCS to be able to check and ensure installation are to MCS standard and that your customers are eligible for MCS. so you gain your MCS by ensuring you have the following.
A high understanding of a Quality Management System which includes similar standards to ISO9001 but in addition have specific procedures for the product(s) you are working with. ( I got mine from easy mcs in chester)
Technical ability to complete the installation : ability to design, install and commission the system.
PROBLEM: Your technical director iS 50 years old and can't bend like he use to, what do you do????
You sub-contract in a fully qualified electrician carrying 17th etc and ask him to sign a sub contractor agreement form, this form must state that the installer will work to the standards set out in the relevant mcs standard (e.g MIS3002 ). Once he has completed the installation you as the MCS accredited company would asses the installation to ensure all the standards have been met. Once you are confident with that all the paperwork, design & installation are up to the standard you can apply for your assessment. they will check as you have that all the sections are up to standard.
Yes at this point you as the MCS accredited company have not physically screw a panel to the roof but doing this is not rocket science and you / the customer is safe in the knowledge that the system has been designed by an MCS approved installer which is specific to the technology they are having. and in addition to this a fully qualified spark has fitted the system into the grid so once again everybody feels alot more confident.
I don't want you to think just anybody could gain MCS, I can assure you that if you do not have the technical ability to do the installation then you will not gain MCS. But you can use sub contractors to en-sure work is done quickly and professionally but you as the technical rep will have to asses the installation for compliance and commission prior to logging onto the mcs list.
Ok, so with all this in mind we go back to using someone else's installation to gain your MCS, this covers the same rules as above you must have all the technical ability and professionalism to both complete the installation and document it correctly. you must prove this during your assessment by showing your calculations / certificates of training and competency etc. Once you can prove to the assessor you can cover all these sections and trust me you will be tested on it then you will be granted MCS. f they come back in twelve months time to audit you and you are not working to these standards you will have your MCS taken from you (I have seen this happen).
in conclusion yes you can gain MCS without actually fitting the equipment but you must prove you are capable of fitting the equipment if required.
sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear but I hope this helps people looking to get into mcs and doesn't rattler the cages of to many of you who are already MCS ( i am only stating the facts )
I hope I have not mislead anybody via my posts above, Morgan123 is perfectly correct and the MCS scheme does require you to operate in a manner similar to ISO9001 ( which I think we all agree is a good thing???). in addition to this the company must show that a senior member of staff e.g Technical director has the ability to install the products ( this covers mounting the panels correctly) and design the electrical feeds & inverter section of the system ( this is nearly impossible without 17th edition and experience on site) in addition the technical representative must be able to show they can calculate wind loads etc. (basically give a good understanding of a working PV system).
If you have all this in place then you are capable of not only completing the installation to mcs standard but also of ensuring a system is installed to these standards which bring in the sub contractor section.
So for instance you are an M&E consultant looking to gain MCS to be able to check and ensure installation are to MCS standard and that your customers are eligible for MCS. so you gain your MCS by ensuring you have the following.
A high understanding of a Quality Management System which includes similar standards to ISO9001 but in addition have specific procedures for the product(s) you are working with. ( I got mine from easy mcs in chester)
Technical ability to complete the installation : ability to design, install and commission the system.
PROBLEM: Your technical director iS 50 years old and can't bend like he use to, what do you do????
You sub-contract in a fully qualified electrician carrying 17th etc and ask him to sign a sub contractor agreement form, this form must state that the installer will work to the standards set out in the relevant mcs standard (e.g MIS3002 ). Once he has completed the installation you as the MCS accredited company would asses the installation to ensure all the standards have been met. Once you are confident with that all the paperwork, design & installation are up to the standard you can apply for your assessment. they will check as you have that all the sections are up to standard.
Yes at this point you as the MCS accredited company have not physically screw a panel to the roof but doing this is not rocket science and you / the customer is safe in the knowledge that the system has been designed by an MCS approved installer which is specific to the technology they are having. and in addition to this a fully qualified spark has fitted the system into the grid so once again everybody feels alot more confident.
I don't want you to think just anybody could gain MCS, I can assure you that if you do not have the technical ability to do the installation then you will not gain MCS. But you can use sub contractors to en-sure work is done quickly and professionally but you as the technical rep will have to asses the installation for compliance and commission prior to logging onto the mcs list.
Ok, so with all this in mind we go back to using someone else's installation to gain your MCS, this covers the same rules as above you must have all the technical ability and professionalism to both complete the installation and document it correctly. you must prove this during your assessment by showing your calculations / certificates of training and competency etc. Once you can prove to the assessor you can cover all these sections and trust me you will be tested on it then you will be granted MCS. f they come back in twelve months time to audit you and you are not working to these standards you will have your MCS taken from you (I have seen this happen).
in conclusion yes you can gain MCS without actually fitting the equipment but you must prove you are capable of fitting the equipment if required.
sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear but I hope this helps people looking to get into mcs and doesn't rattler the cages of to many of you who are already MCS ( i am only stating the facts )
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Markc
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Your last post does now make more sense. It's not how I first thought that you can use an existing system. It is still up to the assessed company to provide proof from first contact to completion that they were the installing company, all be it via sub contracted labour on certain aspects. So on that first job it would be a case of not only ensuring faith from the client to the contractor that they will achieve MCS but also fund sub contracted labour for the installation.
If however it isn't the case I don't understand how you can possibly use someone else's installation to gain MCS like you said in an earlier post? Am I correct is assuming if you know of an installer who is MCS you could contact them to ask if you can use their installation as an example of works for you to achieve MCS rather than having the expense of installing a system yourself? If that is correct it is that, that sticks in the throat a bit.
Thanks for the last post Treadwarm
If however it isn't the case I don't understand how you can possibly use someone else's installation to gain MCS like you said in an earlier post? Am I correct is assuming if you know of an installer who is MCS you could contact them to ask if you can use their installation as an example of works for you to achieve MCS rather than having the expense of installing a system yourself? If that is correct it is that, that sticks in the throat a bit.
Thanks for the last post Treadwarm
Don't worry, I won't shoot the messenger 
I don't agree that the QMS equals customer satisfaction. I don't agree that it helps small businesses in any way either.
So if the MCS scheme does not consider technical ability (it cannot, unless it judges an installation) then it is useless.
For example, I have worked with plenty of sparks who are 17th Edition but does this mean they are good sparks? Of course not. If it did then we could do away with the NICEIC, ECA and NAPIT.
I don't agree that the QMS equals customer satisfaction. I don't agree that it helps small businesses in any way either.
So if the MCS scheme does not consider technical ability (it cannot, unless it judges an installation) then it is useless.
For example, I have worked with plenty of sparks who are 17th Edition but does this mean they are good sparks? Of course not. If it did then we could do away with the NICEIC, ECA and NAPIT.
T
Treadwarm
The question is how would the assesor know if you have used somebody elses installation ??? Impossible for them to check, but they can asses that you understand all the areas of the standard and test you on this during your assesment.
In reality if you adopt an mcs standard qms then your company will operate to a high standard for documentation ( see easy mcs in Chester ) and the procedures will en-sure you know how to work.
Only during your annual audit when they pick your installations at random to asses could they check if you are installing to the correct standard. Furthur more if a client feels your installation is poor they can report you to REAL who could arrange an audit.
Put it this way you could be the best spark in the world with the highest standard qms but you don't have the cash to pay for the products to put them on your own house, or find anybody to take a punt on someone who is not mcs accredited.
Sorry to say it guys but yes, you can get mcs from an existing installation I know because I have done it myself.
U do need a good quality management system and easy mcs seem to be the best for this!!
In reality if you adopt an mcs standard qms then your company will operate to a high standard for documentation ( see easy mcs in Chester ) and the procedures will en-sure you know how to work.
Only during your annual audit when they pick your installations at random to asses could they check if you are installing to the correct standard. Furthur more if a client feels your installation is poor they can report you to REAL who could arrange an audit.
Put it this way you could be the best spark in the world with the highest standard qms but you don't have the cash to pay for the products to put them on your own house, or find anybody to take a punt on someone who is not mcs accredited.
Sorry to say it guys but yes, you can get mcs from an existing installation I know because I have done it myself.
U do need a good quality management system and easy mcs seem to be the best for this!!
Could this not be said about a lot of assessments? If you use someone elses work as your own to achieve NICEIC accreditation then you are guilty of fraud.
It seems to me, and I could well be wrong, that companies are being led by the hand through the QMS process. They may well end up with a high standard document at the end but there is nothing stopping cowboy outfits from getting involved if what you say is correct. That cannot possibly be right.
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