Neutrals to switches ??

[mark28118]

Some guy at works tyrying to tell us that your no longer allowed to bring a neutral to the switch if the switch isn't double pole, but he says he cant find it in the regs....is he talking sh1te ? Where does it state this if he isn't...

Cheers

 

[UNG]

Its never been against regulation but various councils stipulated it wasnt to be done to avoid confusion with the switchwire if done in black/blue...... it was word of mouth that spread through the industry but with no real backing so much so that a clark of works on one site i did told us to remove the Neutrals, i had to download the relevent info before he'd believe me and presented it to him with a job spec asking for switch mount buzzers to be installed when key switch was operated for e/m lighting, after he made us feel incompetent in front of customer it was nice to have him eat humble pie..... didnt get any hassle after that from him.

I always find revenge is best served up in a similar situation so the customer can see what kind of dick he's employed to oversee his project

 

[RWJ]

Can anyone "shed" any light on why this has been added??

They have probably read the heated debate on here..... Which if you've visited their forum you know they view this one, they have referred to and quoted us many times and often have their own debate off the back of ones started here

 

[Engineer54]

I see there are some still trying to put words into my mouth that i've never actually said!! lol!!
Never said at any time, that neutrals shouldn't be present at light switch positions. If they are needed for an application that's more than fine with me. Using switch positions merely as a junction box is another matter altogether. And my views on that senerio hasn't changed and nor will it change...

 

[Octopus]

They have probably read the heated debate on here..... Which if you've visited their forum you know they view this one, they have referred to and quoted us many times and often have their own debate off the back of ones started here

If the IET are reading this forum on a regular basis they must realise that they produce really badly worded documents. Its useful having some flexibility but you need a BA in English to understand some of them. Maybe they could get the next version of the regs reworded by the plain English society!!

 

[Engineer54]

If the IET are reading this forum on a regular basis they must realise that they produce really badly worded documents. Its useful having some flexibility but you need a BA in English to understand some of them. Maybe they could get the next version of the regs reworded by the plain English society!!

The last ''Plain English'' written Reg's was the 14th Ed!! lol!! It changed in the 15th in preparation for BS7671, ie BS written English!!

 

[ezzzekiel]

more than likely so the watered down domestic electricians dont get confused wiring lights

 

[Crackedwolf]

Terminate in a block! Not a problem............. easier than having a mass of them behind your light fitting.
Think matey is getting confused with unswitched fcu's

 

[Engineer54]

Terminate in a block! Not a problem............. easier than having a mass of them behind your light fitting.
Think matey is getting confused with unswitched fcu's

??????

 

[ezzzekiel]

Terminate in a block! Not a problem............. easier than having a mass of them behind your light fitting.
Think matey is getting confused with unswitched fcu's

also ???????

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Terminate in a block! Not a problem............. easier than having a mass of them behind your light fitting.
Think matey is getting confused with unswitched fcu's

might as well get in as well.........??????

 

[Adam W]

Using switch positions merely as a junction box is another matter altogether. And my views on that senerio hasn't changed and nor will it change...

A switch position isn't merely a junction box though - it's a switch position, in the same way as a ceiling rose isn't merely a junction box but also a ceiling rose; would you be happier adding an extra junction box, which is merely a junction box?

I read the new reg as advising designers to consider the possibility of a neutral being needed at the switch positions at some point in the future for electronic switching devices, rather than saying that running a neutral to a switch is fine if you're too tight to fork out for an extra junction box.

 

[Engineer54]

A switch position isn't merely a junction box though - it's a switch position, in the same way as a ceiling rose isn't merely a junction box but also a ceiling rose; would you be happier adding an extra junction box, which is merely a junction box?

I read the new reg as advising designers to consider the possibility of a neutral being needed at the switch positions at some point in the future for electronic switching devices, rather than saying that running a neutral to a switch is fine if you're too tight to fork out for an extra junction box.

Errr, Ceiling roses are Designed to carry the neutral, the neutral is also being utilised at the ceiling rose, Unlike at the back box of a switch. As i said, fine when you NEED a neutral at the switch point, not so fine when it's Not!!

I wonder if this so-called new design possibility, is for commercial needs, where installations are still mainly wired in conduit and singles?? One thing i am sure of, you'll not see switch looped systems in any half decent projects with specifications attached to them.

 

[Adam W]

Errr, Ceiling roses are Designed to carry the neutral,

Yes but the most commonly replaced part of the installation is the light fittings, and many modern light fittings are not designed to accomodate a permanent live, therefore installers are left with the option of leaving the ceiling rose (which is unsightly) or modifying the fitting to accomodate a permanent live, which could involve poking it up into the ceiling void, which IMO is far worse than having a neutral connection in the back of the switch box.

The point of the reg seems to be that you might need a neutral at the switch at some point in the future, for electronic switching, whereas you are unlikely to ever need a permanent live in a domestic property, and if you needed one in a commercial property (eg for emergency lighting) it would have already been factored into the design of the installation.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Errr, Ceiling roses are Designed to carry the neutral, the neutral is also being utilised at the ceiling rose, Unlike at the back box of a switch. As i said, fine when you NEED a neutral at the switch point, not so fine when it's Not!!

I wonder if this so-called new design possibility, is for commercial needs, where installations are still mainly wired in conduit and singles?? One thing i am sure of, you'll not see switch looped systems in any half decent projects with specifications attached to them.

You dont need a permanant live at a ceiling rose...but it may well be there.

You may well see looped neutrals at switches on prestige projects,where it makes sense.... (which it often does)....and the specifiers dont have their heads buried in the sand....:helmet:

 

[Engineer54]

[/B]You dont need a permanant live at a ceiling rose...but it may well be there.

You may well see looped neutrals at switches on prestige projects,where it makes sense.... (which it often does)....and the specifiers dont have their heads buried in the sand....:helmet:

Never!!!

Specifiers of prestige projects, tend to have far more sense than that...

Yes, but then the ceiling roses are once again Designed to accommodate them!!